Medals whilst in the Labour Corps

[Eoin Gallacher]

This may be a silly question but, if a soldier, for example only got the Victory medal and British war medal - and he enlisted in the Northumberland Fusiliers but by the end of the war was in the Labour Corps... what regiment would it say on his medals, Northumberland Fus or LC?

Many Thanks!

Eoin

Edited 28 October , 2022 by Eoin Gallacher

[RaySearching]

I have always understood that (in the case above) the medals VM and BWM would have been impressed with the first unit the soldier served in a theater of war

 

[Eoin Gallacher]

Ah ok thanks!

As I thought it was the campaign star which was the first regiment went to theatre with - and the VM and BWM was the last regiment they were in.

Eoin

[chaz]

normally, the only change would be in rank, usually upwards on the BWM/Vic.

 

this is why checking through soldiers history gets confusing, his medals to his initial regiment, but although noted, his final regiment would be on pension or effects papers.

this means that to thoroughly research you have to try all options and fingers crossed get lucky.

[TullochArd]

There's no such thing as a silly question Eoin. 

My understanding is that ALL medals would be engraved with Northumberland Fusiliers with that allocated number if he earned them in that unit despite ending the War in the Labour Corps.  That said, if he was enlisted/attested in Northumberland Fusiliers, but never served overseas with that unit, then they would be impressed Labour Corps. 

It bucks the accepted trend but men who served in the Labour Corps, having served in a previous unit, had their 14-15 Stars, Victory and War medals engraved with the unit they were in when they first went overseas with no mention of service in the Labour Corps. 

I believe this exception was somewhat motivated by the period perception that the Labour Corps was not a fighting unit......a perception which does not stand scrutiny.

I'll stand corrected.

[Eoin Gallacher]

Cheers!

very interesting!

[chaz]

its not to be forgotten why some men were transferred to the Labour Corps.

being wounded and no longer fit for active service but still of some use : from the LLT

 This type of battalion came into being with an Army Order in December 1914. In early 1916, a number of infantry battalions composed of men who were medically graded unfit for the fighting were formed for labouring work. They had only 2 officers per battalion. Twelve such battalions existed in June 1916.

[RaySearching]

Find below a letter to the war office  a query regarding her sons medals which she believed were wrongly impressed 

and the war office reply which clarifyies the matter

W O reply

Ray

[RaySearching]

If your curious to who the soldier, the above letters relate to 

from my notes

Private OWEN GARVEY

68511 23rd Bn Northumberland Fusiliers
46547 15th Bn Durham Light Infantry

Owen was killed in action with the Durham Light Infantry just after the 2nd Battle of Bapaume on 10th September 1918 during an attack on Cavalry Support trench

Born Feb 17th 1899 Owen aged 18 enlisted into the training Bn K.O.Y.L.I and allocated the service number 82555 His address given as his parents 30 Italy Street Middlesbrough

He was posted to the West Riding Regiment on completion of his training and transferred to the Northumberland Fusiliers Pte 68511

Owen served with the Northumberland Fusiliers from 28/3/1918 the date of his arrival in France to 17/6/18 on which date he was transferred to the   15th Bn Durham Light Infantry and allocated the service number 46547

He was the son of Annie Gaffney (previously Rafferty) nee Garvey and the stepson of Edward Gaffney a dock labourer (his mother Annie married Edward Gaffney in Middlesbrough in 1906) his mother having previously married Peter Rafferty in 1900   (Peter died in 1902 aged 26)

His mother’s age is given as 28 on the 1911 census which would make her just 16 when Owen was born

Owen can be found on the 1911 census residing with his mother and stepfather Edward a schoolboy aged 12 at 1 Hordons Buildings Middlesbrough

On the 1901 census Annie and Peter Rafferty and Owen can be found residing at 54 Kendal Street Middlesbrough

Owen was initially buried close to where he fell his body was exhumed late in 1919 and reburied in Gouzeaucourt New British Cemetery

His medals were impressed with the 1st unit and service number of the regiment he first served with in France Pte 68511 Northumberland Fusiliers

The register of soldiers’ effects list his mother Annie Gaffney as the legatee of his effects

The claimant of a dependant’s pension is listed as Mrs Ann Gaffney (mother) age 40 of 28 Italy Street Middlesbrough

Born and enlisted Middlesbrough
GOUZEAUCOURT NEW BRITISH CEMETERY            (Middlesbrough war memorial)

 

Ray

 

[Eoin Gallacher]

Thanks mate!

I haven't seen many ww1 medals in my life...

if it was Northumberland Fusiliers - what abbreviation would be pressed on the medal?

Or if it was the Durham Light Infantry or Highland Light Infantry would it say - DLI or HLI?

[RaySearching]

Google is you friend 

I am sure you can find various examples of a number of units

 

Ray

[Jim Strawbridge]

Raysearching. That is a Military Medal which includes the Battalion number. That would be unusual for a British War Medal or Victory medal although the 1914 and 1914/5 star may have included the battalion number. To answer Eoin Gallacher's question "  if it was Northumberland Fusiliers - what abbreviation would be pressed on the medal?    Or if it was the Durham Light Infantry or Highland Light Infantry would it say - DLI or HLI ?"   

For the Northumberland Fusiliers the 1914/5 star, BWM and Victory medal would normally be impressed as NORTH'D FUS. For the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th 20th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 24th, 25th, 26th, 27th, 28th, 29th, 30th, 31st, and the 32nd battalions the BWM,  victory medal and 1914/5 star usually gives the battalion number with the service number either with a hyphen or a full stop. ie 32-182 PTE. J. RYMER. NORTH'D FUS.  and 32.367 PTE. R. STAMP. NORTH'D FUS.  For the 1914/15 star the REGIMENT would usually be with a hyphen and anticeded with a colon  ie  17-425 PTE. A.E. HORNER. NORTH'D FUS:  All of the 1914 stars that I have seen show the regiment number  ie.  642 PTE. W. GILROY. 1/NORTH'D FUS:

The D.L.I. is similar although I have never seen a medal using the abbreviation of D.L.I. (except on a privately named one). Normally DURH. L.I. for the BWM and victory medals and DURH: L.I. for the 1914/5 stars. The 1914 star will show the regiment  ie.  8884 BNDSMN: L.W. MONGER. 2/DURH: L.I. with a colon after the rank, too. The BWMs and victory medals will include the regiment number, too, with spacing of a hyphen or a full stop. Battalions that I have seen are 6th, 7th, 9th, 10th, 18th, 19th 20th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd and 26th   

The H.L.I. has medals impressed to the H.L.I. or the HIGH.L.I.  On neither the BWM or victory medal I have yet to see the battalion number added. Usually the BWM is impressed as HIGH. L.I. and the 1914/5 star as HIGH: L.I. (occasionally as HIGH. L.I.). The 1914 star would normally include the battalion number  ie.  10657 PTE. E. TURNER. 2/HIGH: L.I.

As always, there will be exceptions.

[Eoin Gallacher]

Thank you very much!

So what if a soldier went to France and was immediately transferred to another regiment?  - like at a depot or something. What would the medal say then? how long did the soldier have to be in a regiment overseas for it to qualify as the "fist unit he served with"?

Eoin

[TullochArd]

35 minutes ago, Eoin Gallacher said:

Thank you very much!

So what if a soldier went to France and was immediately transferred to another regiment?  - like at a depot or something. What would the medal say then? how long did the soldier have to be in a regiment overseas for it to qualify as the "fist unit he served with"?

Eoin

Eoin, As an example ....... my grandfather was enlisted, attested and trained as an East Lancashire Regiment soldier in UK.  He deployed to France and at IBD Etaples was more or less immediately transferred to where the need was at that time which was 20th Liverpool Pals.  He then joined his new Regiment at the front in Zonnebeke on active service with all the rislk and rigour that entailed.  His medals are impressed "L'Pool R." 

There may be the odd anomolly by generally the first posting outside IBD Etaples was usually the start point.

[Eoin Gallacher]

Ah ok! cheers!

[Bilco]

On Friday TullochArd said:

"I believe this exception was somewhat motivated by the period perception that the Labour Corps was not a fighting unit......"

I have handled 4 Victory medals, all named to the Labour Corps, of the Type 1, 'chocolate-brown' variety, and issued by the Labour Corps Depot in Nottingham in December 1920. I wondered if this was a deliberate attempt to use up stocks of these unpopular medals on 'non-fighting' troops before the shiny Type 2 issues were started in January 1921.

Bill

[AndrewSid]

20 hours ago, TullochArd said:

There may be the odd anomolly by generally the first posting outside IBD Etaples was usually the start point.

I’ve often wondered about this topic.  My example was my great uncles who was Lancashire Fusiliers in training, sent to the IBD and was rebadged as E Lancs Regiment for a week but then was moved to the Kings Own Royal Lancaster Regiment with whom we went into the field.  His  transfer into the E Lancs was all over his service record and strangely a proportion of the men he transferred with (confirmed Lancs Fusilier men) had E Lancs on their medal roll and thus potentially was classified as their first unit in a theatre of war. Sadly I don’t have his medals to confirm but the melee of mass IBD transfers must have been tricky to untangle after 1919 and the medal rolls were being developed. 
 

Story Plug here: 

 

[Keith_history_buff]

On 28/10/2022 at 20:33, RaySearching said:

Find below a letter to the war office  a query regarding her sons medals which she believed were wrongly impressed 

and the war office reply which clarifyies the matter

 

W O reply

Quote

All medals are stamped with the unit & number of the regiment with which men first served in the field

Ray

I didn't realise this gets a mention on the medal roll, as seen in a similar thread:

 

  

On 01/03/2017 at 19:11, RussT said:

This is a snippet from a Labour Corps Medal Roll (it just so happens to include the first few men in the LC number range as Thomas Deakins, who appears further down the list but not shown). Note:

 

1) All these men have former Regiments/Corps and numbers

2) All these men would have had their former Regiment/Corps and number inscribed on their medals (as per the heading for Column 4 of the Roll).

 

Most medal rolls for the Labour Corps look like this - simply because many men were transferred to the Labour Corps from previous active units.

 

There should be self-consistency for all three medals - i.e. same Regiment/Corps and numbers. There are some nuances e.g. a TF man might have his original low-digit number on his Star and his later 6-digit number on his VM/BWM (but with the same unit).

 

Russ

 

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