2nd battalion Leicestershire regiment diversionary attack at Loos 25th sept 1915

[weshallremember]

good afternoon

a lot is covered about the main battle at Loos

but are there any books, info  or maps that cover the 2nd Leicestershire diversionary attack north of Loos on 25th sept 1915

where they lost 196 men

many thanks

trevor

[Howard]

There are very few good maps of that date and area. The best is in TrenchMapper.

If you right click and choose Map ID Jump with id=m_5_000569 you will find a secret map that shows British trenches in that area, unlike most other maps which showed only front lines.

Howard

 

[weshallremember]

the area i am looking for is a place called le PIETRE

 

[Howard]

1 hour ago, weshallremember said:

the area i am looking for is a place called le PIETRE

 

le Pietre is at 36.N.20.b.4.2, le PIETRE Mill is at 36.M.30.d.10.8

If you put le Pietre in the Advanced Find in TrenchMapper it will give you those results or you could put the map references in directly on the left.

If you then right click and centre the map, then right click again and choose Maps at Centre you will see 330 listed on the left.

Choosing one may well not show the name le Pietre, you will have to look at several to make sure.

Howard

 

[weshallremember]

many thanks

trevor

[Bob Davies]

On 24/10/2022 at 16:52, weshallremember said:

but are there any books, info  or maps that cover the 2nd Leicestershire diversionary attack north of Loos on 25th sept 1915

Hello Trevor, if I may add that the WD has some information including grid references. (Edit here; it is typed for these dates out so easy reading!)  Free to download if you register with them at the National Archives, which is also free and painless to do. Best Wishes, Bob. There are maps if you need them from the National Library Scotland. Link to WD here;  https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=WO+95%2F3945%2F2

Edited 25 October , 2022 by Bob Davies

[brianmorris547]

There is this map on the NLS system which shows Pietre but the map is upside down and so are the numbers on the squares. It takes a bit of imagination to align it.

The WD of 7 Indian Div HQ (WO 95/3931) has detailed reports of the Action as do the WDs of the Garhwal and Bareilly IBs (WO 95/3944 and 3947). The September and October 1915 WDs of the Garhwal are misfiled in 3944 but September starts on p 130 on Ancestry. The WD of the Dehra Dun IB (WO 95/3940) who were in reserve also has reports. There are lots of sketches, one showing the Moulin and Chimney at Pietre is in the WD of 2 Black Watch of the Bareilly IB (WO 95/3948). Ancestry p 119 & 120.

Over the years I have tried in vain to find 1915 maps of Neuve Chapelle and the surrounding area in WDs. EDIT There are some in the 7 Indian Div Commander Royal Artillery (WO 95/3933) but the numbering is different.

The Mine was sprung at M 30 a 3 4 by 173 Tunnelling Co RE.  

https://maps.nls.uk/view/101723244

Brian

Edited 26 October , 2022 by brianmorris547

[Howard]

The map on NLS is one of a very small series of sheets drawn south up. The idea did not catch on.

There is one of this set on TrenchMapper, id=m_002053, others await georeferencing by the team.

Howard

[TEW]

@brianmorris547

Over the years I have tried in vain to find 1915 maps of Neuve Chapelle and the surrounding area in WDs.

Brian, yesterday I gleaned another batch of diaries attempting to find 1914 maps of the Marne & Aisne areas. Not much luck for me there but one of the diaries had some plans/maps of Neuve Chapelle for 1915.

I'll have to back track to find them again and PM the details to you.

TEW 

[weshallremember]

thanks for the info BRIAN

i have also looked at the 2nd and 4th black watch wd's

trevor

[weshallremember]

i find it makes researching so much more interesting

when you have an actual  map of the area in question

with grid references for battles or the fallen

trevor

  

[brianmorris547]

4 hours ago, TEW said:

@brianmorris547

Over the years I have tried in vain to find 1915 maps of Neuve Chapelle and the surrounding area in WDs.

Brian, yesterday I gleaned another batch of diaries attempting to find 1914 maps of the Marne & Aisne areas. Not much luck for me there but one of the diaries had some plans/maps of Neuve Chapelle for 1915.

I'll have to back track to find them again and PM the details to you.

TEW 

TEW

Thanks

Brian

[brianmorris547]

A better map from the February 1915 WD of 3 Infantry Brigade, 1 Div. WO 95/1275 (1:5 000 map of Bois du Biez on three pages, Ancestry pp 116, 117 and 118). This is page 118. This is the best map of the area I have found so far.

Brian

Edited 28 October , 2022 by brianmorris547
typo

[Howard]

That map is on TrenchMapper, id= m_003479. Being georeferenced, the text is inverted whereas the map is north up not south up as drawn.

A slighlty differnt sheet has id= m_002053

Howard

[brianmorris547]

Thanks Howard.

I like to compare them with the modern maps, in this case IGN 1:25 000 Armentieres 2404 E. 

Brian

EDIT: 2404 E attached.

Edited 28 October , 2022 by brianmorris547
additional info

[weshallremember]

found this map

 

trevor

[weshallremember]

anyone have any idea of the location of ESSEX TRENCH at Loos  23RD OCT 1915

thanks

trevor

[Howard]

44 minutes ago, weshallremember said:

anyone have any idea of the location of ESSEX TRENCH at Loo's 23RD OCT 1915

thanks

trevor

TrenchMapper gives Essex Lane.

Howard

[weshallremember]

wd for the 12th battalion highland light inf

states essex trench d2 sector quarries

  

[weshallremember]

good morning Howard

thanks for the map very kind of you

its further south than the first map you sent me

and essex trench is further back front the front line than i expected

so maybe it was a aircraft bomb the 12th highland light inf wd just says bomb

as also of the 5 men killed only two were buried which could mean a lager bomb (who knows) 

found a picture of fosse no,2 de Lievin  which on the map is just south of essex trench

thanks again

trevor

[weshallremember]

is this map the same area as above

the war diary said sector d2

the top left hand corner says d2

also as the above map fosse no2 de lievin is directly below  

trevor

map

[brianmorris547]

Trevor

The Essex Trench shown on the above map is way to the south of where 12 HLI were. There was an Essex Lane just to the south of the road from Vermelles to Hulluch, which you can see on this sketch from the WD of 2 Bn KRRC of 2 IB/1 Div (WO 95/1272 p 618 on Ancestry) but the Quarries were north of the Vermelles to Hulluch Rd.

The October 1915 WD of 46 Infantry Brigade, 15 Div records that the Brigade occupied the trenches from G 12 a 5 4 to G 5 d 1 3. 12 HLI was in that position on 25/10/1915. I have a map taken from the September 1915 WD of  63 Infantry Brigade which I have cropped to show those co ordinates near the Quarries. You can also use it to overlay the sketch from 2 KRR.

There are some great maps of the Quarries in the WD of 20 IB/7 Div. I will have a look. EDIT: No Essex Trench near the Quarries on the map in the WD of 21 IB. The Essex Lane in the first map is in Square G 18 c 

Brian

Edited 29 October , 2022 by brianmorris547
typo

[weshallremember]

yes i thought it did not look right

it's strange because an appendix in the 46th brigade wd

also states ref d2  Essex trench and mentions a place called hair pin corner

so im guessing both wd's meant to say essex lane ???   

trevor

[brianmorris547]

35 Infantry Brigade of 12 Div were ordered to take the Quarries on 13/10/1915. I have read all the WDs including the attacking Bns and the RE plus attached docs but none mention Essex Trench.

This sketch is in the WD of 35 IB (WO 95/1846). 

Edited 1 November , 2022 by brianmorris547

[brianmorris547]

I think I've cracked it, if my assumption is correct. 

I wondered if there might be a clue in the October WD of 9 Bn Essex Regt of 35 Infantry Brigade. Attached to the WD is a report of a bombing raid on 18/10/1915 on a section of trench on the edge of the Quarries from G 12 a 1/2 10 to G 12 a 2 8, marked A to B on an attached sketch.

The report is a few pages long but well worth a read. Could this section of trench be Essex Trench. I think it must be.

There are also Field Returns naming casualties of the Bn from 18 to 20/10/1915. A rare bonus.

Sketch showing G 12 a marked A to B attached courtesy TNA WO 95/1851.

Brian