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Remembered Today:

Uniforms on display in the Ariane Hotel, Ypres


stephen p nunn

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Uniforms on display in the Ariane Hotel, Ypres.....

Regards.

Stephen (Maldon).

Uniform1.jpg

Uniform2.jpg

Uniform3.jpg

uniform4.jpg

uniform5.jpg

uniform6.jpg

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33 minutes ago, tonydb said:

Great photos, I would be interested to know the identity of the Pioneer's sleeve insignia in image #4.

Tony.

It’s the sign of the 19th (Western) Division I think.

76435610-9C0D-45E2-B10A-181B28893410.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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6 minutes ago, tonydb said:

Frogsmile I would agree, thanks for identifying for me. Butterfly has me Intrigued Google here I come!

Tony.

 

Hi Tony. This maybe of interest to you... 'Killer Butterflies''

7A0E8FE0-1856-4EC0-B123-C7D3C3CF3695_4_5005_c.jpeg

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19 minutes ago, tonydb said:

Frogsmile I would agree, thanks for identifying for me. Butterfly has me Intrigued Google here I come!

Tony.

 

There’s a thread about the origin of the badge.  I think that the original GOC was a butterfly enthusiast.  Try searching 17th Division within the forum.

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31 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

There’s a thread about the origin of the badge.  I think that the original GOC was a butterfly enthusiast.  Try searching 17th Division within the forum.

Thak you will do.

Tony.

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Here you go.....

Regards.

Stephen (Maldon).

014 (2).JPG

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  • 2 weeks later...

Why are the Sgt stripes (does the crown insignia indicate SgtMaj?) in the second picture black (Dark Green?) on red as opposed to the standard khaki on drab? 

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1 hour ago, Doc2nd112th said:

Why are the Sgt stripes (does the crown insignia indicate SgtMaj?) in the second picture black (Dark Green?) on red as opposed to the standard khaki on drab? 

Because the unit of the London Regiment depicted is Queen Victoria’s Rifles, that before the London Regiment was formed in 1908, had been a Volunteer Battalion of the King’s Royal Rifle Corps (formerly 60th Rifles).

The 60th Rifles/KRRC was an older regiment than their brethren in the other regular rifle regiment, the Rifle Brigade, and had unlike them once been a scarlet clad regiment.  To commemorate that origin in scarlet, and to mark them out as different from the RB, they wore a scarlet backing to their rank stripes.

A majority (but not all) of the units of the London Regiment had previously been VBs of either the KRRC or the RB, and to commemorate that lineage they tended to keep certain dress idiosyncrasies that linked them with that period of their history.

NB.  Black on red chevrons were also used by the following:

1.  2nd Gurkha Rifles to commemorate their fighting side-by-side with the 60th 1857-58.

2.  Infantry Boys Battalion post WW2 (1952) and then again when established as Infantry Junior Soldier (Boys) units circa 1960s.

3.  It continues to be used today by junior soldiers of the Army Foundation College, Harrogate.  This is currently the sole remaining use of black on red chevrons in the British Army.

A3B64CE3-DD96-4E78-A8F7-F123958F0ADB.jpeg

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7944745F-B763-4C92-8BB5-70A07EBE00AC.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Thank you very much for your response. I've often wondered what the purpose of this is, as it is very smart in appearance and quite eye catching. 

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15 minutes ago, Doc2nd112th said:

Thank you very much for your response. I've often wondered what the purpose of this is, as it is very smart in appearance and quite eye catching. 

Yes I agree.  It’s a pity that there’s no regular field force unit left still using them.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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50 minutes ago, Doc2nd112th said:

If I could ask an additional question, would the 2nd fusilliers of the London Rgt have worn this style of chevron as well?

No, because as fusiliers they were not a rifle regiment.  Although their origins were as a Volunteer Rifle Corps back in 1859, they had after the Cardwell/Childers Reforms that culminated in July 1881, been allocated as a VB to the regular Royal Fusiliers (which was made at the same time the regular army’s “City of London Regiment” - as a secondary title).

Having had several decades to cement that connection with the RF, in 1908 the 2nd London’s did not wish to revert back too far, especially given the constant changes they’d experienced as a result of the various reforms.  As a construct the London Regiment was arguably flawed and much abused during its existence.  It has recently again endured another short existence only to once more be discontinued and converted instead into an auxiliary reserve for the Foot Guards regiments.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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4 minutes ago, Doc2nd112th said:

Thank you kindly. Its an interesting unit. 

Yes it epitomised two things I think, first the very long history of London’s citizens providing auxiliary volunteer soldiers, and second the unique nature of those British regiments that contained no regular units.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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By any chance did you see the post I made an hour or two regarding the rimless briodie with the 2nd fusiliers insig? Would you guess that's from the London regiment?

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19 minutes ago, Doc2nd112th said:

By any chance did you see the post I made an hour or two regarding the rimless briodie with the 2nd fusiliers insig? Would you guess that's from the London regiment?

Interesting.  Its origin could have been deduced by elimination, but not at a glance.  The shape of the grenade is very specifically based on an interesting piece of insignia known in clothing and badge nomenclature as the “universal grenade”.  It was introduced as the Royal Artillery collar badge for other ranks in 1881 and later as the service dress arm badge for SNCOs of Royal Engineers.  In 1905 it was ordered as an undress collar badge for fusilier regiments and as an element of 2-piece shoulder titles for shoulder straps of Grenadier Guards and all fusilier regiments (there was a historical link between all of these).  Ergo it became one of few pieces of insignia that united them all, albeit for slightly different purposes.

The TF London Regiment had it’s first four units (1st to 4th)  all associated with the Royal Fusiliers and the City of London, so it was a natural unifying insignia for them too.  However, superimposing the number on the ball of the grenade dated back to a practice with much older insignia for the regular regiments of the army.  Interestingly the London Regiment of that period did have a unit that wasn’t fusiliers at all and yet bizarrely wore a grenade as it’s insignia.  This was the 7th London Regiment, whose badge was a brass grenade with a white metal 7 on the ball.  It might be that the 2nd London’s had been visually inspired by that arrangement when considering insignia for their steel helmets.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Very interesting. I suspected it may be an insignia used by a variety of units. With any luck perhaps someone will have a photograph or another example in their collection that may suggest something specific. I do suspect it may be from the 2nd London fusil., but that is merely speculation. 

 

I do so very much appreciate all of your help

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26 minutes ago, Doc2nd112th said:

Very interesting. I suspected it may be an insignia used by a variety of units. With any luck perhaps someone will have a photograph or another example in their collection that may suggest something specific. I do suspect it may be from the 2nd London fusil., but that is merely speculation. 

 

I do so very much appreciate all of your help

If it is genuine then it would be extremely unusual for it not to be recorded.  At the end of the war the then embryo of what later became the Imperial War Museum (subsequently fully established in the old Bethlem Hospital, Southwark, London, where it remains) sent out a questionnaire to all units commanding officers asking them for dress features, insignia, etc.  This was responded to with various degrees of enthusiasm but the request was sent more than once and a majority of units provided the required details.  I can only suggest that you consult there.  Forum member @poona guardmight be able to comment.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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I may have to. I know there is a book published on the subject by Kevin Beckhurst that I may have to invest in. I've seen some pages from it. 

From my online reading today it may be from 2nd bn Royal Scot fusil. 

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Just managed it - QVR, a regimental affectation. The butterfly is indeed 19th division but it doesn't signify that, it is a divisional honour badge for good work.

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26 minutes ago, Doc2nd112th said:

I may have to. I know there is a book published on the subject by Kevin Beckhurst that I may have to invest in. I've seen some pages from it. 

From my online reading today it may be from 2nd bn Royal Scot fusil. 

Yes it’s not completely impossible that it’s from another fusilier regiment, but the London’s are ostensibly favourites I think.

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16 minutes ago, poona guard said:

Just managed it - QVR, a regimental affectation. The butterfly is indeed 19th division but it doesn't signify that, it is a divisional honour badge for good work.

In traditional military terms that chimes with the butterfly being worn on the lower arm.

Other images for QVR titles.

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16F0D49F-9928-4633-9919-9725C79AFA69.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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