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Cpl 785272 James Herbert McLoughlin RFA


Mac923

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I'm researching my uncle, Corporal 785272 James Herbert McLoughlin of the Royal Field Artillery who was Killed in Action near Arras on 23rd April 1917, aged 19 years. James came from Sheffield and was on summer exercise with the West Riding (Territorial Force RFA)(Sheffield) when war as declared in 1914. His unit was immediately mobilized. He has no known grave but his name is commemorated on the Arras memorial. The CWGC has him listed as being with "9th Battery, 232nd Brigade RFA" but I cannot find any reference to this "9th Battery" ? I would be deeply grateful if someone could advise me on this apparent enigma, and also if there was a unit war diary in existence that may indicate where he was and what he was doing at the time of his death. I still retain numerous photos of him. Thank you.

Edited by Mac923
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I think you will find that to be a mistake by CWGC - Batteries were invariably lettered A to D (when 4 Batteries to a Brigade)

His Soldier's Effects Record shows he was in C Battery

You can send a message to CWGC to ask them to check their source records and to amend them accordingly.

Regards

Russ

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Thank you Russ. Could you possible tell me what a "Soldier's Effects Records" is please ? I have in my possession a photo of my uncle and his "sweetheart" that was taken from his tunic pocket and returned to his parents (my grandparents) after he was KIA. The soldier who is supposed to have done this, and to have written a brief note to me grandparents, was a Gunner JAMES EDWIN WILKINSON. Gnr Wilkinson was my uncle James best friend : they came from adjacent streets in Sheffield and were both in the local RFA Territorial Force unit when they were mobilised in 1914. Sadly, Gnr Wilkinson was himself KIA about four days later - but he has a known grave, unlike my uncle.

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The 9th Battery, 3rd West Riding Brigade RFA was formed at Sheffield in 1908. The first line went to France in mid April 1915 and in May 1916 the battery became C battery, 247th Brigade RFA. A section of B Battery, 247th Brigade RFA was added in October 1916 to bring it up to 6 guns. Then, on January 1, 1917, the brigade was split up with C/247 becoming C battery, 232nd Army Brigade RFA.  

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Thank you for that David. I've just downloaded the relevant War Diary (WO95/456/4) to find out what happened to them on 23rd April 1917 when my uncle Cpl 785272 James Herbert McLoughlin was KIA, but my eyesight is too poor to read it ! 

I do actually have a photograph of my uncle James and eight of his Territorial Force comrades when they were on summer exercise at Sutton House, Hull (the building is now a Nursing Home) in August 1914 - he sent the photo as a postcard to his parents (my grandparents) back home in Sheffield. By sheer coincidence, the stamp and post office "frank mark" on the card is 4th August 1914 - the day war was declared. 

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53 minutes ago, Mac923 said:

I do actually have a photograph of my uncle James and eight of his Territorial Force comrades when they were on summer exercise at Sutton House, Hull (the building is now a Nursing Home) in August 1914 - he sent the photo as a postcard to his parents (my grandparents) back home in Sheffield. By sheer coincidence, the stamp and post office "frank mark" on the card is 4th August 1914 - the day war was declared. 

That is interesting as press reports give 3rd West Riding Brigade RFA at Pembrey, S. Wales when war was declared. Can you scan both sides of the card and post them here?

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4 hours ago, Mac923 said:

Thank you Russ. Could you possible tell me what a "Soldier's Effects Records" is please?

The Soldiers' Effects Records are a very useful source of information on those who died during the Great War. The Records have been digitised and can be found on Ancestry - their description of the Records is shown below together with the actual Record for your Uncle.

Regards

Russ

 

SER Database.jpg

SER Database - 785272.jpg

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If you go to CWGC you can download all those who died whilst serving with the 232nd Brigade RFA.

In doing just that I found over 200 fatalities.

A snapshot of just a small sample of them is shown below including your Uncle's entry. In every single case where a Battery is actually recorded, the Battery is lettered in the customary way. Only in the case of your Uncle is it recorded differently i.e. as 9th Battery, hence one reason for my conclusion for it being an error - although David's post above puts an interesting twist on that now.

Regards

Russ

 

785272.jpg

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Dear David and Russ :

Thank you for the superb information. I'm at my son's home in North Yorkshire at the moment but when I return home after the weekend I'll upload the postcard/photo. If my memory is correct there are about four photos altogether : one shows "Sutton House, Hull" in 1914. I believe it says on the back "This is where we are" (or words to that effect). A second is a group photo of my uncle James and about eight other RFA TF soldiers stood outside Sutton House. (You can tell it's the same building by the shape of the windows). A third is of my uncle James in his RFA TF uniform, taken about 1914 (he looks very, very young) and the fourth is of him and his "sweetheart" - this was the one returned to the family after he was KIA by his friend, James Edwin Wilkinson, who was himself KIA about four days later. The last photo was believed to have been taken about January 1917 when he was home on leave. The family used to live on Washford Road, Attercliffe, Sheffield but their home was destroyed in a Zeppelin attack on 26th September 1916. (I have a photo of the house after it was destroyed - the back yard of the terraced house abutted a munitions factory !) Incidentally, when James was KIA in April 1917, his mother (my paternal grandmother) was pregnant. She subsequently gave birth to a daughter who was named LILLE ARRAS McLOUGHLIN  as it was believed these were the two towns closest to his place of death. My aunt Lille lived well into her 90's.  Best wishes, Mac.

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The postmark looks like August 15, 1914 to me. By which time the West Riding Brigades RFA had moved to war stations which included Hull, York, Doncaster and Grimsby.

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Dear David and Russ, I'm not very good at IT but please find attached photos of my uncle Cpl 785272 James Herbert McLoughlin 232nd Brigade RFA who was KIA on 23.04.1917. He is standing fifth from the right in the group photo at Sutton House, Hull in August 1914. Next to him is his best friend Gnr 785276 James Edwin Wilkinson who wrote to my grandparents but who was also KIA a few days later on 27.04.1917. - though Gnr Wilkinson has a known grave and is buried in a CWGC cemetery. I have tried to read the 232nd Brigade war diary for 23rd April 1917 in the hope of finding out what happened on that day and how my uncle was killed (and why his body was lost) but my eyesight is just too poor to make out the words. In regard to the stamp and post office "frank mark" for the Sutton House photo-postcard, I got the date wrong : it WASN'T 4th August 1914 (the day war was declared) but 14th August 1914. The frank mark also clearly says "SUTTON, HULL" on it - and this is where they were on summer RFA Territorial Force exercise when war broke out and they were mobilised. I therefore can't understand how they were supposed to be on exercise in Wales. My uncle's RFA TF unit was based at the Edmund Road Drill Hall in Sheffield (sometimes referred to as Lancing Road barracks) very near to Bramall Lane football ground. The building is still there but is now used as various private company premises. More than anything I suppose, I would dearly like to find out how my uncle met his death - he was a Corporal, but only 19 years old. Best wishes, Mac.

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On 20/10/2022 at 22:31, Mac923 said:

I'm researching my uncle, Corporal 785272 James Herbert McLoughlin of the Royal Field Artillery who was Killed in Action near Arras on 23rd April 1917, aged 19 years. James came from Sheffield and was on summer exercise with the West Riding (Territorial Force RFA)(Sheffield) when war as declared in 1914. His unit was immediately mobilized. He has no known grave but his name is commemorated on the Arras memorial.

His MIC appears to give his original TF number: 1244, RFA.

And shows he first went overseas to a ToW (1) France  16.4.15 - Entitling him to the award of a 1914-15 Star, British War Medal and a Victory Medal 'trio'.

M

Edited by Matlock1418
typo
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1 hour ago, Mac923 said:

Screenshot_20221022-213049.jpg

Interesting photo nicely showing several men wearing the leather and steel gaiters worn to protect the right legs of the drivers.

M

 

Edited by Matlock1418
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1 hour ago, Mac923 said:

20221022_212548.jpg.375110ec521eb4af35cdd3614f64a442.jpg

 

 

 

Wearing a simplifed tunic jacket with unpleated, but larger, breast pockets and no shoulder reinforcement - likely earlier in the UK

C/w below

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Wearing standard jacket - probably more likely shortly before deployment.

M

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Pension cards at WFA/Fold3 show his mother, Emma McLOUGHLIN, made a dependant's pension claim [it appears successfully, but the quantum is not recorded - quite typically could be between 5/- and 10/- per week - Pension file appears lost - typically they were destroyed once their use was ended]

She has two addresses recorded: 27 Chapel St, Attercliffe, Sheffield, and later 13 Omdurman St, Sheffield.

M

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12 hours ago, Mac923 said:

The frank mark also clearly says "SUTTON, HULL" on it - and this is where they were on summer RFA Territorial Force exercise when war broke out and they were mobilised. I therefore can't understand how they were supposed to be on exercise in Wales.

I don't have full access to the Newspaper Archive, but here are a few extracts to prove they were at Pembrey.

Sheffield Evening Telegraph - July 27, 1914
"The 3rd West Riding Brigade R.F.A. (T.) are now under canvas. They arrived at Pembrey early yesterday morning, having set out the previous night from Sheffield, under the command of Colonel C. Clifford."

Sheffield Daily Telegraph - July 29, 1914
"PEMBREY, Tuesday Night. The 3rd West Riding Brigade R.F.A. has now settled down in its new quarters, and is preparing for the work which takes the place of the men’s holiday."

Army and Navy Gazette - August 1, 1914
"3rd West Riding Brigade R.F.A.— The brigade went under canvas for annual training on Sunday last, at Pembury"

Sheffield Independent - August 1, 1914
"GUN PRACTICE AT THE PEMBREY Rain fell at Pembrey yesterday without intermission, but the 1st and 3rd West Riding Brigades went through collective tests signals, the scheme being carried out to the satisfaction of the inspecting officer"

Sheffield Evening Telegraph - August 4, 1914
"The members of the 3rd West Riding Brigade R.F.A. returned to Sheffield during this afternoon. The first train reached this city at twelve o’clock."

Edited by David Porter
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Dear David and Russ, I'm not very good at IT but please find attached photos of my uncle Cpl 785272 James Herbert McLoughlin 232nd Brigade RFA who was KIA on 23.04.1917. He is standing fifth from the right in the group photo at Sutton House, Hull in August 1914. Next to him is his best friend Gnr 785276 James Edwin Wilkinson who wrote to my grandparents but who was also KIA a few days later on 27.04.1917. - though Gnr Wilkinson has a known grave and is buried in a CWGC cemetery. I have tried to read the 232nd Brigade war diary for 23rd April 1917 in the hope of finding out what happened on that day and how my uncle was killed (and why his body was lost) but my eyesight is just too poor to make out the words. In regard to the stamp and post office "frank mark" for the Sutton House photo-postcard, I got the date wrong : it WASN'T 4th August 1914 (the day war was declared) but 14th August 1914. The frank mark also clearly says "SUTTON, HULL" on it - and this is where they were on summer RFA Territorial Force exercise when war broke out and they were mobilised. I therefore can't understand how they were supposed to be on exercise in Wales. My uncle's RFA TF unit was based at the Edmund Road Drill Hall in Sheffield (sometimes referred to as Lancing Road barracks) very near to Bramall Lane football ground. The building is still there but is now used as various private company premises. More than anything I suppose, I would dearly like to find out how my uncle met his death - he was a Corporal, but only 19 years old. Best wishes, Mac.

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On 23/10/2022 at 00:04, Matlock1418 said:

Pension cards at WFA/Fold3 show his mother, Emma McLOUGHLIN, made a dependant's pension claim [it appears successfully, but the quantum is not recorded - quite typically could be between 5/- and 10/- per week - Pension file appears lost - typically they were destroyed once their use was ended]

She has two addresses recorded: 27 Chapel St, Attercliffe, Sheffield, and later 13 Omdurman St, Sheffield.

M

Thank you for that superb information : the reason for the change of address is a result of the family being made temporarily homeless when their house at Washford Road, Attercliffe, Sheffield was destroyed by bombing in a Zeppelin raid in September 1916.

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I've found the unit's war diary entry for 23rd April 1917 when my uncle was KIA, but my eyesight just isn't good enough to make out what it says, or whether it's of any relevance in identifying a specific area or location for the place of his death, his body not being found. Could anyone possibly assist me please ? For many years after his death, my grandmother went to seances and visited "psychics" in the hope of learning something more about the loss of her son, but all to no avail.

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Hi Mac923,

On 24/10/2022 at 13:29, Mac923 said:

my eyesight just isn't good enough to make out what it says

Without transcribing the diary entry completely, in broad terms it says that 232 Brigade RFA were deployed TILLOY - WANCOURT Road, and detailed as Reserve Sub-Group (liaising with 46 Infantry Brigade - the Reserve Brigade of 15 Division) when the Third and First Armies recommenced their attack. They were allotted special tasks, chiefly keeping down machine gun fire during the attack. During the day, the diary says that his unit had 17 causalities. 

The Division war diary gives a map reference for the HQ of the Reserve Sub-Group on 19th April 1917.

image.png.882babff207588720434322a5dfca467.png
Image sourced from the National Archives

It also has an overview of the events of the day.

23rd April 1917.pdf

It might also be worth having a look at the diary for the Commander Royal Artillery. 15 Division - link.

Whilst it may tell you very little, James left what was accepted as being his Will. For a small fee it is available as a low resolution B&W copy from here.

image.png.e45c376f52096e694824b2e302f69446.png

Regards
Chris

 

 

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On 24/10/2022 at 23:29, Mac923 said:

Could anyone possibly assist me please ?

Unfortunately you posted a very small extract which was much too hard for me to read.  Luckily Chris (@PRC)  has posted a better quality location.  The HQ was south east of Arras and the trench it was in can be seen clearly in the aerial photograph.  The modern day location is the corner of Chemin de la Chapelle and Rue de Wancourt.  Tilloy is just out of the image at the NW corner.  Note this location is his headquarters and we don't know exactly where he was, but it would have been familiar to him.

Click each image to enlarge.

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image.png.6f981643a64fa0f41f932d535501f831.png

 

 

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