3rd Bn Rifle Brigade Insignia in 1916-17

[Serenata]

I've been researching 3rd Battalion extensively, to make a project as accurate as possible, but have a question about battle patches / cloth insignia of the 3rd Battalion RB worn on the upper sleeve. Is this top right insignia of the 24th Division in the attached illustration considered the four pointed Coy Star?

Or was the four pointed star worn in addition to a 2 1/4 inch red square? As indicated in this comment:

Perhaps I'm just getting confused somehow about what's worn where. I know some Div signs were worn on the upper back, above the P1908 bag. Thanks in advance.

[FROGSMILE]

31 minutes ago, Serenata said:

I've been researching 3rd Battalion extensively, to make a project as accurate as possible, but have a question about battle patches / cloth insignia of the 3rd Battalion RB worn on the upper sleeve. Is this top right insignia of the 24th Division in the attached illustration considered the four pointed Coy Star?

Or was the four pointed star worn in addition to a 2 1/4 inch red square? As indicated in this comment:

Perhaps I'm just getting confused somehow about what's worn where. I know some Div signs were worn on the upper back, above the P1908 bag. Thanks in advance.

Each infantry company’s coloured 4-pointed star was worn above either, a rectangle, or a diagonal cross, or a triangle, or a square.  Each of the latter shapes representing one of the four battalions within a brigade.  The three brigades within the Division were in turn indicated by the colours red (senior brigade), green (intermediate brigade) and yellow (junior brigade).  Both badges were worn on the arm.

Knowing which of the three Brigades 3rd Battalion RB was in will give you the colour and shape of the lower of the two badges.  The surmounting star badge then differed in colour according to company.

Edited 18 October , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Serenata]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Each infantry company’s coloured 4-pointed star was worn above either, a rectangle, or a diagonal cross, or a triangle, or a square.  Each of the latter shapes representing one of the four battalions within a brigade.  The three brigades within the Division were in turn indicated by the colours red (senior brigade), green (intermediate brigade) and yellow (junior brigade).  Both badges were worn on the arm.

Knowing which of the three Brigades 3rd Battalion RB was in will give you the colour and shape of the lower of the two badges.  The surmounting star badge then differed in colour according to company.

Thank you so much! At the time I'm curious about, the 3rd Battalion RB was in 17th Brigade.

[Serenata]

And more specifically, B Company of 3rd Battalion.

Edited 19 October , 2022 by Serenata

[FROGSMILE]

On 19/10/2022 at 07:49, Serenata said:

And more specifically, B Company of 3rd Battalion.

Okay so it’s a red star (C Coy)  above a red shape (senior Brigade).  As the most junior battalion in Army lineage (the Rifle Brigade appeared out of the line but at its end in lineage), their ‘shape’ was the square.  So in total, a red 4-point star above a red square.

Erratum:  company colour for B Coy is green (God knows why I misread your clear statement), so it should be a green 4-pointed star.

Edited 21 October , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[stiletto_33853]

[FROGSMILE]

On 19/10/2022 at 18:02, stiletto_33853 said:

Is the Osprey book incorrect, as it seems to suggest each company had a different coloured star?   The issue seems to be different coloured stars indicating company with a single colour shape (square in this case) indicating brigade, or a single coloured star showing division, with a shape (square) indicating brigade and its different colours indicating company. The former would seem to be more logical as = company (colour), of battalion (second colour), of brigade (shape).

NB.  Need to consult David Bilton’s book and see if it matches with Osprey (Mike Chappell).

Edited 21 October , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[EastSurrey]

The original orders for this 'Identification Patches for Infantry' scheme are quoted in the surviving Battalion Orders for 6.8.1916 for 9th East Surrey, 72nd Brigade, 24th Division, at Surrey History Centre. This indicates' a Battalion mark to be worn below the Company mark on both  arms. Ist Battalion in the Brigade'[drawing of a horizontal bar 3"x1"] 2nd Battalion in the Brigade [drawing of a St. Andrew's cross '3"x1"-dimensions presumably relating to the two strips used]; 3rd Battalion in the Brigade [drawing of an equilateral triangle with 3" sides, point upwards]. 4th Battalion in the Brigade [drawing of square with 3" sides.] Colours 17th Infantry Brigade RED; 72nd Infantry Brigade GREEN; 73rd Infantry Brigade YELLOW.'

Unfortunately this does not describe the earlier company marks, but I see no reason to doubt that these were diamond shaped. My great uncle served with 'D' Company , 9th East Surrey. In a photograph taken in late 1917, in which his left arm is clearly seen, he has a St. Andrew's cross (presumably in green for the 2nd battalion of 72nd Brigade) on his upper arm. Above this is what appears to be a diamond shape (presumably in yellow). He wears his bomber's flaming grenade badge, probably in brass, between the bottom arms of the St. Andrew's cross.

As already indicated, the application of this scheme changed in early 1918, with the changes brought about by the reduction to nine infantry battalions per division.

Michael

[FROGSMILE]

16 hours ago, EastSurrey said:

The original orders for this 'Identification Patches for Infantry' scheme are quoted in the surviving Battalion Orders for 6.8.1916 for 9th East Surrey, 72nd Brigade, 24th Division, at Surrey History Centre. This indicates' a Battalion mark to be worn below the Company mark on both  arms. Ist Battalion in the Brigade'[drawing of a horizontal bar 3"x1"] 2nd Battalion in the Brigade [drawing of a St. Andrew's cross '3"x1"-dimensions presumably relating to the two strips used]; 3rd Battalion in the Brigade [drawing of an equilateral triangle with 3" sides, point upwards]. 4th Battalion in the Brigade [drawing of square with 3" sides.] Colours 17th Infantry Brigade RED; 72nd Infantry Brigade GREEN; 73rd Infantry Brigade YELLOW.'

Unfortunately this does not describe the earlier company marks, but I see no reason to doubt that these were diamond shaped. My great uncle served with 'D' Company , 9th East Surrey. In a photograph taken in late 1917, in which his left arm is clearly seen, he has a St. Andrew's cross (presumably in green for the 2nd battalion of 72nd Brigade) on his upper arm. Above this is what appears to be a diamond shape (presumably in yellow). He wears his bomber's flaming grenade badge, probably in brass, between the bottom arms of the St. Andrew's cross.

As already indicated, the application of this scheme changed in early 1918, with the changes brought about by the reduction to nine infantry battalions per division.

Michael

Thank you Michael, that is helpful.  What you have described as a “diamond” was apparently intended to be a 4-pointed star representing the outline shape of the 24th Divisional sign.  See illustration number 5 in the schematic above.

NB.  Having now had the chance to consult David Bilton’s profusely illustrated book, page 279 shows colour photos of actual 4-point stars of 24th Div demonstrating conclusively their different colours:

A Coy - Blue.

B Coy - Green.

C Coy - Red.

D Coy - Yellow.

Afternote:  I think that aside from the badges concerned, these company colours were quite probably standard and connected with ‘camp colours’ (for the marking out of tented lines) laid down in Army Administration in the Field.  They were still exactly the same company colours during my own service many decades later and used for marking company equipment stowage boxes and individual kitbags.  It meant that just as with the arm flashes it was possible at a glance to know which company kit and equipment belonged to.

Edited 22 October , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Serenata]

Thank you so much for answering my questions. I truly appreciate the help. I'm happy to have conclusive research on the insignia, it's one of the last missing pieces of my research puzzle.

Stay tuned for more on this project at some point, when it's time to ask on the GWF for specialist extras