RFC identification

[PRC]

5 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Wouldn't that go on extreme right?

I didn't know, but a hunt around the internet for pictures of similar medal sets that have turned up on auction sales certainly seems to support that statement.

I feel my roll here is to ask the dumb questions so that others don't have to

Cheers,
Peter

[PRC]

3 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Actually Clifford Thomason Beckett. Became Major General.

And for comparison purposes:-

All image rights remain with the current owners.

I'm fairly certain he is not present in the second post war group photograph.

Cheers,
Peter

[charlie962]

Peter, can you do your side by side bit with these two? You've already mentioned his MBE 1928. Does the second photo include this?

Reginald Thomas Hockey, no 7 in the original 1924 photo and perhaps no8 in the later one?

Evening Telegraph 12/5/44, courtesy Findmypast 

[PRC]

43 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Peter, can you do your side by side bit with these two? You've already mentioned his MBE 1928. Does the second photo include this?

Reginald Thomas Hockey, no 7 in the original 1924 photo and perhaps no8 in the later one?

The picture on the right certainly seems to have another ribbon on the left hand end, (assuming they are the same man). I just don't know enough about medals to have any confidence to even try guessing. I've tried a quick look online but just ended up even more confused

Cheers,
Peter

[charlie962]

Thank you.Definately same man and dates photo post 1928.. 

I read he has MBE military, 14 Star, BWM, VM in the later photo.

Edited 23 October , 2022 by charlie962

[PRC]

Latest update on the names on the first picture posted in this thread.

Standing.

1: Captain Rutter Barry Martyn, M.C.
2: 2nd. Lieutenant Peter Bevil Edward Acland
3: Captain Arthur William Acland M.C.
4: Lieutenant Edward William Seymour.
5: 2nd Lieutenant B.H. Hare – probably Eric Henry Hare.
6: Lieutenant Brian Edward Stanley Mountain
7: Lieutenant Reginald Thomas Hockey.
8: Lieutenant Derick Heathcoat-Amory.
9: Captain Reginald John Collings, R.A.V.C.
10: Captain John Arthur Pethbridge Martin.

Sitting.

11: Major William Henry Dyke Acland, M.C., A.F.C.
12: Major Harold Richardson Fox, M.C.
13: Major Hugh Wetherall Goldney, O.B.E., M.C., R.A. Staff Captain
14: Captain Clifford Thomason Beckett, M.C., R.F.A. Adjutant  - Thanks to @charlie962
15: Lieutenant-Colonel Arthur Claude Mardon, D.S.O., T.D.
16: Commanding Colonel Arthur Charles Rothery Nutt, D.S.O., R.A.
17: Major Philip Percy Kenyon Slaney, M.C.  
18: Major Viscount Ebrington, Hugh William Fortescue, M.C.

In front

19: 2nd Lieutenant Philip Michael Martin  - Thanks to @Tawhiri
20: 2nd Lieutenant Godfrey Basil Herbert Mundy
21: Lieutenant Humphrey Pennington Fulford.

Cheers,
Peter

[charlie962]

Thanks for your continued update, Peter.

Collings is no 9 in both photos, I think. In the later photo I'm fairly comfortable those are RAVC cap and collar badges.

[PRC]

And first attempt at the third officer group picture. As we don't have a helpful Tatler caption to firm things there is more of an element of douby to the attribution, hence leaving them in red for now.

Standing

1.     2nd Lieutenant? No medal ribbons.
2.     ???. Possible MC.
3.     Captain? No medal ribbons.
4.     ???. No medal ribbons.
5.     ???. Eye patch. Multiple Ribbons.
6.     2nd Lieutenant? No medal ribbons.
7.     ???, 1914/15 Star, BWM & VM?
8.     ??? Reginald Thomas Hockey

Seated

9.     Major? Medal Ribbons.
10.  Captain? BWM & VM?
11.  ???. Unknown? MC? 1914/15 Star, BWM & VM?
12.  ??? William Henry Dyke Acland.
13.  ??? MC? 1914/15 Star, BWM & VM?
14.  Captain? MC? BWM & VM?
15.  ??? Arthur William Acland.
16.  Captain? MC? BWM & VM?

Ground

      17: Lieutenant? No medal ribbons.
      18: ??? No medal ribbons.
      19: 2nd Lieutenant? No medal ribbons – might be Humphrey Pennington Fulford but that will possibly depend on which picture was taken first.

Cheers,
Peter

[charlie962]

Crossed posts re no9

[charlie962]

Peter, could you try comparison 4 photo1 with 10 photo 2 please? 

Ps photo 2 is a fair bit later than photo 1. They've aged 5-10 yrs...

Edited 23 October , 2022 by charlie962

[PRC]

20 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Collings is no 9 in both photos, I think. In the later photo I'm fairly comfortable those are RAVC cap and collar badges.

These two images? (I think he may have moved slightly in the left hand picture as I can't get it any sharper).

Could possibly be the start of his ribbons on the left hand picture rather than a blemish as I originally thought.

Cheers,
Peter

[charlie962]

Those are both Collings and RAVC badges.

[PRC]

32 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Peter, could you try comparison 4 photo1 with 10 photo 2 please? 

Ears - shape, size and position relative to eyebrows, nose and lips seem a good match.
So does shape of nose.
Chin looks comparable, as does medal ribbons.
Eyes too obscured and lacking picture quality in the left hand image to make a call.

Gets a tick from me

Cheers,
Peter

 

[FROGSMILE]

53 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Thanks for your continued update, Peter.

Collings is no 9 in both photos, I think. In the later photo I'm fairly comfortable those are RAVC cap and collar badges.

I agree regarding RAVC insignia, Charlie.

 

Edited 23 October , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Ears - shape, size and position relative to eyebrows, nose and lips seem a good match.
So does shape of nose.
Chin looks comparable, as does medal ribbons

Thanks.Agreed.plus same thick kneck. 

Thus ok for Edward William Seymour.

Edited 23 October , 2022 by charlie962

[charlie962]

Just to provide some potential other names for photo2, here is another Tatler image, from 1937, courtesy Findmypast. 

There is better definition in the newspaper.

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle

Edited 23 October , 2022 by charlie962

[charlie962]

Interesting WHSmith tree:

[PRC]

36 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Just to provide some potential other names for photo2, here is another Tatler image, from 1937, courtesy Findmypast. 

There is better definition in the newspaper.

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle

 

In front the names include:-

Lieutenant Hender Charles Molesworth-St. Aubyn.

Peerage website has "Captain Hender Charles Molesworth-St. Aubyn was born on 5 January 1901 at Helston, Cornwall, England. He was the son of Sir Hugh Molesworth-St. Aubyn, 13th Bt. and Emma Sybil Wake. He married Dulciebella Joy Vereker, daughter of Lt.-Col. John Cayzer Medlicott Vereker and Dulcie Flores Elder Radcliffe, on 26 October 1935. He and Dulciebella Joy Vereker were divorced in 1946. He died on 6 December 1986 at age 85 at Plymouth, Devon, England.1,4
     He was educated at Eton College, Windsor, Berkshire, England. He gained the rank of Captain in the Royal Devon Yeomanry Artillery (Reserve Officers.) He was admitted to Territorial Decoration (T.D.) He gained the rank of Major in the Royal Pioneer Corps. He fought in the Second World War, in Iceland, France and Germany. "https://www.thepeerage.com/p29996.htm#i299960

Major John Kendric La Tour Mardon, nephew of Lieutenant Colonel Arthur Claude Mardon from the first group picture posted.

2nd Lieutenant Patrick Gerald Heathcoat-Amory.

Captain Patrick Gerald Heathcoat-Amory (1912-1942), was killed in action during the North African Campaign on 27 May 1942, aged 30, while serving with the Royal Artillery (seconded to 2 Indian Field Regiment, Royal Indian Artillery). He obtained a 2nd Class Honours Degree at Christ Church, and also served in the Oxford University Air Squadron from 1932–34 and the Royal Devon Yeomanry in 1934. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heathcoat-Amory_baronets
https://www.chch.ox.ac.uk/fallen-alumni/captain-patrick-gerald-heathcoat-amory

Patrick and Derick can just about be made out in this picture courtesy The National Trust Collection. (Standing, Patrick is on the left, Derick is third from left.)

Image courtesy https://www.nationaltrustcollections.org.uk/object/540497.6

Conscious we are getting further and further away from the Great War. The 1937 Tatler picture only has one man in uniform wearing medal ribbons, (as far as can be told). While Acland & Seymour, both in civvies, were also entitled to wear them, this is the first post-war picture posted in this thread where such men are in a minority.

Cheers,
Peter

 

[charlie962]

53 minutes ago, PRC said:

Conscious we are getting further and further away from the Great War.

Noted

[charlie962]

4 hours ago, PRC said:

5: 2nd Lieutenant B.H. Hare

The initials in the Tatler were EH so Edward Henry looks good.

[PRC]

On 20/10/2022 at 11:20, Heroes16 said:

Here is one which I know little about, but reading the back there is a handwritten name of Acland amongst the list!

Any help again in identifying etc would be much appreciated.

 

 

 

On 20/10/2022 at 11:26, FROGSMILE said:

 The centrally seated officer with one arm is from the 3rd (King’s Own) Hussars and most probably the Adjutant.  He wears the earliest (and exceedingly rare) Victorian pattern collar badge for that regiment, with only the rear hooves touching ground.

On 20/10/2022 at 11:48, FROGSMILE said:

Pre WW1, around 1910.  They are wearing the  patrol frocks that replaced stable jackets as undress upper garments around 1898.  In dark blue for most light cavalry, and scarlet for heavies.  They were apparently often referred to colloquially as ‘jumpers’**  There were only breast pockets on this type.

**according to a young Winston Churchill.

The 1910 edition of Hart’s Annual Army List shows the following officer establishment for the Royal 1st Devon, (along with their picture copy request)

Honourary Colonel Sir J. Shelley, Baronet, T.D. Seniority 10th February 1902.

Lieutenant Colonel John E. Heugh Balfour, D.S.O., (Honorary Colonel, late Captain 11 Hussars and Major in the Reserve of Officers) . Seniority 2nd December 1905.  (Wants a mounted copy. Lives at Sidmouth).

Majors.

Alf. Dyke Acland, T.D. (Honorary Lieutenant Colonel). Seniority 10th February 1902. (Wants an unmounted copy. Lives at Danesbury, Welwyn, Hertfordshire).
Rennell Coleridge. Seniority 10th February 1902. (Wants an unmounted copy. Lives at 69 Pont Steet, SW.)
Honourable William Frederick Danvers Smith. Seniority 10th February 1902
Merrik R.A. Wyatt-Edgell (Honorary Lieutenant in Army 11 September 1902). Seniority 10th February 1906. (Wants a mounted copy. Note recorded as Captain).
J.G.B. Lethbridge (Captain Reserve of Officers) Seniority 14th May 1906 (Wants an unmounted copy. Note recorded as Captain).
Richard Harold St. Maur. Seniority 1st September 1907. (Wants an unmounted copy. Lives at Stover, Newton Abbot. Note recorded as Lieutenant).

Captains.

Henry Goodwyn. Seniority 7th June 1905. (Wants an unmounted copy. Lives at Stover, Newton Abbot. Note recorded as Lieutenant).
Lord George Vivian C.B. (late 17 Lancers, Lieutenant Reserve of Officers).  Seniority 7th June 1905.

Lieutenants.

Honorable Thos. C.R. Agar-Robartes. Seniority 10th December 1904.
John Whitworth. Seniority 20th January 1909.
Sir Wilfred Peek, Baronet. Seniority 30th July 1904.
William Gerald Hole. Seniority 20th August 1904.

Second Lieutenants.

G.H. Johnstone. Seniority 4th October 1905.
E.W.H.B. Scratton. Seniority 5th May 1906.
Roger Greville Peek. Seniority 1st May 1907.
Robert C. Hunter. Seniority 10th May 1907.
C.R. Buxton. Seniority 29th May 1908.
E. Hain. Seniority 9th December 1908.
A.M.C. Scott. Seniority 9th December 1908.
Bruce R.E.C. Knight. Seniority 9th February 1909.

Adjutant.

Captain G.H. Watson, 3rd Dragoon Guards, (Captain in Army 27th June 1900). Seniority 17th December 1906.

Quartermaster.

(Blank)

Medical Officer.

Lieutenant A.C. Bird, R.A.M.C. (attached). Seniority 12th August 1908.

Veterinary Officer.

(Blank).

Honorary Chaplain.

Reverend E.J.G. Dupuis, M.A. Seniority 15th March 1890.

Source: https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/100779345

Picture requestors not listed above - Captain Lord Seaton, N.Bernel?, Captain Templer, Robert A.D. Fleming.

It would appear from the rank discrepancies that the picture may well be pre-date the creation of the Territorial Force. Given that Captain Watson of the 3rd Dragoon Guards appears to have been in place as Adjutant since 1906 I went back to the 1905 Hart’s Annual Army List.

That shows the Adjutant as J.G.B. Lethbridge, a Captain in the Reserves, and his seniority dates from the 23rd May 1901. Other officers serving with them includes Captain Lord John R. U Seaton and Captain Jhn. Geo. E. Templer (late Captain Higland Light Infantry and Honorary Major). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/100654450

It may be that a year by year search will turn up an explanation of why the 3rd (Kings Own) Hussars Officer appears in this picture.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 24 October , 2022 by PRC
Typos

[Heroes16]

Hi all been interesting reading all your research please see attached some original photos I have with some familiar faces! 

[Tawhiri]

I'm not sure if the Royal 1st Devon (Exeter) Yeomanry is the same as the Royal Devon Yeomanry, but given the date of 1908 on the second photograph, a full listing of the establishments of both the Royal 1st Devon (Exeter) Yeomanry and the Royal North Devon (Hussars) Yeomanry on 1 April 1908 can be found in the 27 October 1908 edition of the Gazette (previously posted earlier in this thread when trying to identify Arthur Claude Mardon). It would presumably then be a case of matching the names to the faces again.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28189/page/7754

[PRC]

2 hours ago, Heroes16 said:

Hi all been interesting reading all your research please see attached some original photos I have with some familiar faces! 

Turning up on both the two new images as well as the earlier pre-war one you posted is our mysterious one-armed man. It's an interesting transition.

In the left and centre pictures he still wears the cap-badge and collar badges of the 3rd (Kings Own) Hussars, but by Abbrooke Camp in 1908 the collar badges have gone - no cap so can't judge what that would have shown.

Similarly in all three images he has the same medal ribbon over his left breast, but the ones on his right breast only appear on the centre and right images.

Still haven't got a clue who he is but does provide a rudimentary timeline to when they were taken and in which order.

Cheers,
Peter

As usual I do not claim any new IP has been created in preparing the above side by side comparison and all image rights remain with the current owners.

 

[FROGSMILE]

58 minutes ago, PRC said:

Turning up on both the two new images as well as the earlier pre-war one you posted is our mysterious one-armed man. It's an interesting transition.

In the left and centre pictures he still wears the cap-badge and collar badges of the 3rd (Kings Own) Hussars, but by Abbrooke Camp in 1908 the collar badges have gone - no cap so can't judge what that would have shown.

Similarly in all three images he has the same medal ribbon over his left breast, but the ones on his right breast only appear on the centre and right images.

Still haven't got a clue who he is but does provide a rudimentary timeline to when they were taken and in which order.

Cheers,
Peter

As usual I do not claim any new IP has been created in preparing the above side by side comparison and all image rights remain with the current owners.

 

The leather buttons and absence of collar badges show that he left the regulars and joined the TF proper, so he’s wearing their regimental dress, Peter (including most notably their particular shade of service dress (with distinctive open collar revealing a white shirt and contrasting black silk tie) that’s probably a twill rather than a barathea.

Towards rear right is another officer from a different regiment.  My first thought is Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry (the most senior yeomanry regiment), but unless my eyes are mistaken his collar badges appear to have title scrolls, in which case he is more likely from one of the several Welsh yeomanry regiments that favoured insignia based upon the Prince of Wales’s feathers.  A close up might help with ID.  He wears the standard drab service dress of original 1902 pattern with its closed collar.

Edited 24 October , 2022 by FROGSMILE