RFC identification

[Tawhiri]

Rutter Barry Martin is also mentioned in Through Adversity: The Story of Life in the RFC and RAF Through Three Operational Pilots by Alastair Goodrum, which includes him in a group photograph of 2 Squadron taken in August 1914, along with a brief summary of his RFC career.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=0z3KDwAAQBAJ&lpg=PT50&ots=NHKA6QX2Yl&dq=Rutter Barry Martyn&pg=PT44#v=onepage&q=Rutter Barry Martyn&f=false

https://books.google.ca/books?id=0z3KDwAAQBAJ&lpg=PT50&ots=NHKA6QX2Yl&dq=Rutter Barry Martyn&pg=PT50#v=onepage&q=Rutter Barry Martyn&f=false

[pierssc]

Thank you both; very interesting.  I recognise both photos, but the name meant nothing before.  

[charlie962]

13 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

is the artillery staff armlet

Thanks for that. There are two men wearing these. One on the right sleeve and one with band on left sleeve. It is this latter man that I noticed.

He is identified as Colonel ACR Nutt RA. He was captured Le Cateau 26/8/14 as a Major with 52 Battery RFA, and spent the whole of the war as a pow!

https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/3293914

 

Edit ,- an interesting post in another thread on 52Bty 

 

Edited 19 October , 2022 by charlie962

[charlie962]

The other man with the armband is noted as H W Coldney. Error. This is Henry Wetherall Goldney, who served in the RGA 14-18, starting with 31 Heavy Battery then 121 Heavy Battery. He was wounded at least twice and mid several times, not to mention his MC. 

 

https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/1370755 

Edit.. I believe he made it to Major General WW2 and there may be a further story? 

From The truth 23/2/1935 thanks to Findmypast 

 

Edited 19 October , 2022 by charlie962

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

Thanks for that. There are two men wearing these. One on the right sleeve and one with band on left sleeve. It is this latter man that I noticed.

He is identified as Colonel ACR Nutt RA. He was captured Le Cateau 26/8/14 as a Major with 52 Battery RFA, and spent the whole of the war as a pow!

https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/3293914

 

Edit ,- an interesting post in another thread on 52Bty 

 

Hello Charlie, that’s great information.  As the more senior officer the full colonel has the armlet on his left arm and is either the Commander Royal Artillery (CRA) in a division, or a GSO1, I’m unclear which.  The other officer with the armlet on his right arm is his subordinate staff officer and probably a GSO2 on the Artillery Staff.  The alternate arm makes their difference in status clear at a glance. 

Edited 19 October , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

So to flesh out those names a little bit, and also identify Fox, Fulford and Acland from the 1922 picture, here's another run through.

(Picture deleted 21/10/22 as it now appears in a later list of names update).

1: Captain Rutter Barry Martyn, M.C. (see post from @pierssc and the links provided by @Tawhiri 

2: 2nd. Lieutenant Peter Bevil Edward Acland (source The Peerage). http://www.thepeerage.com/p3165.htm#i31650
3: Captain Arthur William Acland M.C. (source The Peerage). http://www.thepeerage.com/p3160.htm#i31599

4: Lieutenant E.W. Seymour.
5:2nd Lieutenant B.H. Hare
6:Lieutenant B.E.S. Mountain (MiC for a Brian E.S. Mountain who served with 9th Lancers. MiC noted ineligible for medals. There was a Brian Edward Stanley Mountain whose birth was registered in the Wandsworth District in Q3 1899.

Edit: Sir Brian Edward Stanley Mountain, 2nd Bt (1899-1977), Businessman; President, Eagle Star Insurance Co. Ltd. Picture taken 6th August 1925 by Bassano Ltd. Image courtesy the National Portrait Gallery. https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw72242/Sir-Brian-Edward-Stanley-Mountain-2nd-Bt?LinkID=mp66232&role=sit&rNo=0

http://www.thepeerage.com/p51812.htm

7: Lieutenant R.T. Hockey. Record of MiD, June 1918 at the NA. Attached to Devonshire Yeomanry as Quartermaster and Honorary Lieutenant
8: Lieutenant D. Heathcote-Amory. Should be Derick HeathCOAT-Amery, a future Chacellor of the Exchequer. His Wikipedia entry includes “He was commissioned a second lieutenant in the 11th (Devonshire) Brigade of the Royal Artillery (Territorial Army)) on 31 July 1920, promoted to lieutenant in the 96th (Royal Devonshire Yeomanry) Field Brigade on 31 July 1922”  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derick_Heathcoat-Amory,_1st_Viscount_Amory

Wounded and taken prisoner at Arnhem in WW2 https://www.specialforcesroh.com/index.php?media/derick-heathcoat-amory.10193/
Lots of pictures on the net from later in life but struggled to find any from earlier.
9: Captain R.J. Collings, R.A.V.C.
10: Captain J.A.P. Martin. MiC as J.A.P. Martin, medals awarded by Air Ministry as he was a Lieutenant RFC \ RAF. No AIR 76 record for that service.

Sitting.

11: Major William Henry Dyke Acland, M.C., A.F.C. (see earlier post)
12: Major Harold Richardson Fox, M.C. (full name from MiC)

13: Major H.W. Coldney, O.B.E., M.C., R.A. Staff Captain (No MiC for anyone with that surname).Edit - cross-posted with @charlie962 who has identified it should be Hugh Wetherall Goldney.
14: Captain Clifford Thomas Beckett, M.C., R.F.A. Adjutant (MiC. When he applied for his Great War service medals he is shown as Captain and his contact address was c\o 95th Brigade RFA (TA) Exeter. Subsequently received a General Service Medal as a Lieutenant-Colonel.
15: Lieutenant-Colonel A.C. Marden, D.S.O., C?.D.
16: Commanding Colonel Arthur Charles Rothery Nutt, D.S.O., R.A. Wikipedia page – wounded and captured at Le Cateau while commanding 52nd Battery R.F.A. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Charles_Rothery_Nutt
Edit -  cross-posted with @charlie962 who has details of his capture.
17: Major Philip Percy Kenyon Slaney, M.C.  Wikipedia page. Gassed several times which affected his health. Elected MP for Tavistock 1924 but health declined and he died in a nursing home in 1928. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Kenyon-Slaney
18: Major Viscount Ebrington, Hugh William Fortescue, M.C. MIC shows he served with 2nd Dragoons, but M.C. and MiD has him serving in the Staff. Subsequently 5th Earl Fortescue. “He returned to England in 1922 and joined the Royal Devon Yeomanry. He was promoted lieutenant colonel in command in 1924” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Fortescue,_5th_Earl_Fortescue

He was previously with the Royal Scots Grays – the picture used for comparison was taken in 1919
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Fortescue,_5th_Earl_Fortescue#/media/File:Hugh_Fortescue,_5th_Earl_Fortescue.jpg

In front

19: 2nd Lieutenant P. Martin
20: 2nd Lieutenant B. Mundy
21: Lieutenant H.P. Fulford.

Cheers,
Peter

No new IP is claimed as a consequence of producing the above pictures. All image rights remain with the current owners.

Edited 21 October , 2022 by PRC
1) Cross-posting 2) Source for image of Brian Mountain and disclaimer 3) 21/10/22 removed numbered group picture

[charlie962]

5 minutes ago, PRC said:

A.C. Marden, D.S.O., C?.D.

TD

6 minutes ago, PRC said:

Major H.W. Coldney, O.B.E., M.C., R.A. Staff Captain (No MiC for anyone with that surname).

See my post

[charlie962]

28 minutes ago, PRC said:

Lieutenant H.P. Fulford.

Humphrey Pennington Fulford 1902-1956.

30 minutes ago, PRC said:

2nd Lieutenant B. Mundy

Basil Mundy

[Tawhiri]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

10: Captain J.A.P. Martin. MiC as J.A.P. Martin, medals awarded by Air Ministry as he was a Lieutenant RFC \ RAF. No AIR 76 record for that service.

There is a casualty form for a 2nd Lieutenant/Lieutenant J.A.P. Martin who transferred into the RFC from the 1/1 Battalion of the North Devon Hussars. Initially attached to 59 Squadron on 5 April 1917, then to 13 Squadron, and finally back to 59 Squadron. The form also seems to indicate two mentions in the London Gazette, firstly his promotion to Temporary Lieutenant, and then his appointment as Assistant Instructor in Gunnery.

https://www.casualtyforms.org/form/14845

The April 1918 RAF Muster Roll has him serving as a Lieutenant with the Technical branch, so presumably ground crew, and not aircrew at this stage.

http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/martin-j.a.p

Finally, after a lot of searching the discovery of the commissioning of a John Arthur Pethbridge Martin as a 2nd Lieutenant in the Royal North Devon Hussars on 11 March 1915.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29095/supplement/2469

That then leads to this AIR76 record, which gives his date of birth as 14 May 1892.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8204342

And some further mentions in the Gazette.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30014/supplement/3471 (to be a temporary Lieutenant from 14 August to 11 October 1916, while still with the Yeomanry)

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30090/supplement/5072 (seconded to the RFC as a Flying Officer (Observer) from 8 April 1917)

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30260/supplement/9007 (back to temporary Lieutenant from 1 August 1917)

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30337/supplement/10669 (promoted to Lieutenant and to remain seconded from 26 May 1917)

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30375/supplement/11638 (appointed as Assistant Instructor in Gunnery from 22 October 1917)

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30461/supplement/424

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30569/supplement/3100

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30787/page/8070 (to be a temporary Captain from 1 April 1918)

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30823/supplement/9087

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31243/page/3759 (to the unemployment list on 12 February 1919)

There are also some further promotions mentioned in the Gazette through the 1920's while serving with the Royal Devon Yeomanry.

Edited 20 October , 2022 by Tawhiri

[FROGSMILE]

10 hours ago, PRC said:

So to flesh out those names a little bit, and also identify Fox, Fulford and Acland from the 1922 picture, here's another run through.

1: Captain Rutter Barry Martyn, M.C. (see post from @pierssc and the links provided by @Tawhiri 

2: 2nd. Lieutenant Peter Bevil Edward Acland (source The Peerage). http://www.thepeerage.com/p3165.htm#i31650
3: Captain Arthur William Acland M.C. (source The Peerage). http://www.thepeerage.com/p3160.htm#i31599

4: Lieutenant E.W. Seymour.
5:2nd Lieutenant B.H. Hare
6:Lieutenant B.E.S. Mountain (MiC for a Brian E.S. Mountain who served with 9th Lancers. MiC noted ineligible for medals. There was a Brian Edward Stanley Mountain whose birth was registered in the Wandsworth District in Q3 1899.

7: Lieutenant R.T. Hockey. Record of MiD, June 1918 at the NA. Attached to Devonshire Yeomanry as Quartermaster and Honorary Lieutenant
8: Lieutenant D. Heathcote-Amory. Should be Derick HeathCOAT-Amery, a future Chacellor of the Exchequer. His Wikipedia entry includes “He was commissioned a second lieutenant in the 11th (Devonshire) Brigade of the Royal Artillery (Territorial Army)) on 31 July 1920, promoted to lieutenant in the 96th (Royal Devonshire Yeomanry) Field Brigade on 31 July 1922”  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derick_Heathcoat-Amory,_1st_Viscount_Amory

Wounded and taken prisoner at Arnhem in WW2 https://www.specialforcesroh.com/index.php?media/derick-heathcoat-amory.10193/
Lots of pictures on the net from later in life but struggled to find any from earlier.
9: Captain R.J. Collings, R.A.V.C.
10: Captain J.A.P. Martin. MiC as J.A.P. Martin, medals awarded by Air Ministry as he was a Lieutenant RFC \ RAF. No AIR 76 record for that service.

Sitting.

11: Major William Henry Dyke Acland, M.C., A.F.C. (see earlier post)
12: Major Harold Richardson Fox, M.C. (full name from MiC)

13: Major H.W. Coldney, O.B.E., M.C., R.A. Staff Captain (No MiC for anyone with that surname).Edit - cross-posted with @charlie962 who has identified it should be Hugh Wetherall Goldney.
14: Captain Clifford Thomas Beckett, M.C., R.F.A. Adjutant (MiC. When he applied for his Great War service medals he is shown as Captain and his contact address was c\o 95th Brigade RFA (TA) Exeter. Subsequently received a General Service Medal as a Lieutenant-Colonel.
15: Lieutenant-Colonel A.C. Marden, D.S.O., C?.D.
16: Commanding Colonel Arthur Charles Rothery Nutt, D.S.O., R.A. Wikipedia page – wounded and captured at Le Cateau while commanding 52nd Battery R.F.A. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Charles_Rothery_Nutt
Edit -  cross-posted with @charlie962 who has details of his capture.
17: Major Philip Percy Kenyon Slaney, M.C.  Wikipedia page. Gassed several times which affected his health. Elected MP for Tavistock 1924 but health declined and he died in a nursing home in 1928. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Kenyon-Slaney
18: Major Viscount Ebrington, Hugh William Fortescue, M.C. MIC shows he served with 2nd Dragoons, but M.C. and MiD has him serving in the Staff. Subsequently 5th Earl Fortescue. “He returned to England in 1922 and joined the Royal Devon Yeomanry. He was promoted lieutenant colonel in command in 1924” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Fortescue,_5th_Earl_Fortescue

He was previously with the Royal Scots Grays – the picture used for comparison was taken in 1919
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Fortescue,_5th_Earl_Fortescue#/media/File:Hugh_Fortescue,_5th_Earl_Fortescue.jpg

In front

19: 2nd Lieutenant P. Martin
20: 2nd Lieutenant B. Mundy
21: Lieutenant H.P. Fulford.

Cheers,
Peter

It’s interesting to me that Fortescue is, in the circa 1925 subject photo, still wearing the exact same service dress in which his photo was taken whilst serving with the 2nd Dragoons (Royal Scots Greys), with the regimental distinction of dark brown leather buttons [favoured by the dragoons] and even a button hole on the left lower lapel.

Edited 20 October , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

9 hours ago, charlie962 said:

See my post

Apologies - I didn't get any notifications that the thread had been posted in since the exchanges about Rutter Martyn. You'd also picked up on Nutt while I was still running through the rest of the names.

Updated list:-

Standing.

1: Captain Rutter Barry Martyn, M.C.
2: 2nd Lieutenant Peter Bevil Edward Acland
3: Captain Arthur William Acland M.C.
4: Lieutenant E.W. Seymour.
5:2nd Lieutenant B.H. Hare
6:Lieutenant Brian Edward Stanley Mountain
7: Lieutenant R.T. Hockey.
8: Lieutenant Derick Heathcoat-Amory.
9: Captain R.J. Collings, R.A.V.C.
10: Captain John Arthur Pethbridge Martin. Kudos to @Tawhiri for being so dogged.

Sittting.

11: Major William Henry Dyke Acland, M.C., A.F.C.
12: Major Harold Richardson Fox, M.C.
13: Major Hugh Wetherall Goldney, O.B.E., M.C., R.A. Staff Captain
14: Captain Clifford Thomas Beckett, M.C., R.F.A. Adjutant
15: Lieutenant-Colonel A.C. Marden, D.S.O., T.D.
16: Commanding Colonel Arthur Charles Rothery Nutt, D.S.O., R.A.
17: Major Philip Percy Kenyon Slaney, M.C.  
18: Major Viscount Ebrington, Hugh William Fortescue, M.C.

In front

19: 2nd Lieutenant P. Martin
20: 2nd Lieutenant Basil Mundy – Thanks to @charlie962   
21: Lieutenant Humphrey Pennington Fulford. – Thanks to @charlie962 

Cheers,
Peter

[Heroes16]

Good Morning All, I’ve had another look though my original collection and I note that some of these chaps appear again in different regimental photos! I will work on uploading these in due course.

Here is one which I know little about, but reading the back there is a handwritten name of Acland amongst the list!

Any help again in identifying etc would be much appreciated.

 

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, Heroes16 said:

Good Morning All, I’ve had another look though my original collection and I note that some of these chaps appear again in different regimental photos! I will work on uploading these in due course.

Here is one which I know little about, but reading the back there is a handwritten name of Acland amongst the list!

Any help again in identifying etc would be much appreciated.

 

They are Royal 1st Devon Hussars Yeomanry.  The centrally seated officer with one arm is from the 3rd (King’s Own) Hussars and most probably the Adjutant.  He wears the earliest (and exceedingly rare) Victorian pattern collar badge for that regiment, with only the rear hooves touching ground.

 

Edited 20 October , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

14 minutes ago, Heroes16 said:

Here is one which I know little about, but reading the back there is a handwritten name of Acland amongst the list!

Looks pre Great War to me. The officer seated centre is cap-badged for a different unit and appears to have lost his lower right arm.

As you can tell from the names on the 1924 picture, plus the former CO's in the press picture, certain families like the Acland's and the Fortescues had a long association with the Yeomanry Territorial Force units in Devon.  So it may be a question of facial similarity rather then being the specific individuals common to both pictures. The cycling of titles, as the oldest son inherited on the death of the father, and then his younger brothers moved up the nobility pecking order doesn't help.

Starting point would probably be to date the picture.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 20 October , 2022 by PRC
Typo

[FROGSMILE]

Pre WW1, around 1910.  They are wearing the  patrol frocks that replaced stable jackets as undress upper garments around 1898.  In dark blue for most light cavalry, and scarlet for heavies.  They were apparently often referred to colloquially as ‘jumpers’**  There were only breast pockets on this type.

**according to a young Winston Churchill.

 

Edited 20 October , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Tawhiri]

7 hours ago, PRC said:

20: 2nd Lieutenant Basil Mundy – Thanks to @charlie962 

Formally this is Godfrey Basil Herbert Mundy who was commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant on 23 January 1924 with the 96th (R Devon Yeo) Brigade.

7 hours ago, PRC said:

5: 2nd Lieutenant B.H. Hare

I'm wondering if this might actually be Eric Henry Hare, who was commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant with the 96th (R Devon Yeo) Brigade on the same day that Basil Mundy was.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/32904/page/1065

Edited 20 October , 2022 by Tawhiri

[Tawhiri]

6 hours ago, PRC said:

4: Lieutenant E.W. Seymour.

A 2nd Lieutenant Edward William Seymour from the R Devon Yeo was appointed 2nd Lieutenant on probation with what looks to be the Grenadier Guards on 28 April 1916, with seniority from 20 June 1915. He looks to be the best candidate to be this individual. He certainly went onto greater things judging by the frequency with which his name appears in the Gazette, ending up as Sheriff for Dorset in 1957, and then being appointed as Deputy-Lieutenant for Dorset in 1959.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29561/supplement/4254

Edited 20 October , 2022 by Tawhiri

[Tawhiri]

7 hours ago, PRC said:

15: Lieutenant-Colonel A.C. Marden, D.S.O., T.D.

Captain Arthur C Mardon of the Royal North Devon (Hussars) Yeomanry was promoted to be Major on 22 April 1914.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28832/page/4008

Moving backwards in time, he was promoted from 2nd Lieutenant to Lieutenant on 28 April 1906.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/27909/page/2980

This entry in the Gazette is presumably linked to the formation of the Territorial Force on 1 April 1908, but in it he is identified as Arthur Claude Mardon. Also listed are all the officers of the Royal North Devon (Hussars) on 1 April 1908, which may assist in identifying at least some of the individuals shown in the pre-war photograph posted by Heroes16 earlier today.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28189/page/7754

His original commissioning as a 2nd Lieutenant was on 6 September 1900 with the 3rd Volunteer Battalion of the Gloucestershire Regiment.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/27232/page/5897

Finally, his citation for his D.S.O. while attached to the 16th Battalion of the Devonshire Regiment from the Gazette of 30 July 1919.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31480/supplement/9681

Edited 20 October , 2022 by Tawhiri

[Tawhiri]

7 hours ago, PRC said:

9: Captain R.J. Collings, R.A.V.C.

A Reginald John Collings was commissioned as a temporary Lieutenant in the Army Veterinary Corps on 15 September 1914.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28922/page/7810

Edited 20 October , 2022 by Tawhiri

[charlie962]

50 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

Reginald John Collings

His father Major JA Collings had been Veterinary Officer for 1st Devon Yeomanry for some 30 years so yet again strong family ties in the regiment!

Edited 20 October , 2022 by charlie962

[charlie962]

7 hours ago, Heroes16 said:

Here is one which I know little about, but reading the back there is a handwritten name of Acland amongst the list!

That list on the back is those ordering copies, framed or unframed .

This May 1902 report on the  Camp of the R 1st Devon's provides the probable IDs?

Courtesy Findmypast newspapers.

I note that Templer is Capt on the back but Major on the press clipping. If same man then ? for date.  

Collings should be JC not J E.

So usual caution!

Edited 20 October , 2022 by charlie962

[charlie962]

Volunteer Services Gazette of March 1902 might explain the confusion of ranks?

Again thanks to Findmypast newspapers

Note Collings this time is JA! Should be J C.

Edited 20 October , 2022 by charlie962

[Heroes16]

Evening all been fascinating what you have managed to identify and I an updating my records to coincide.

As mentioned I have quite a few more photos which are in a similar vein to these!

The one attached has a few faces we have already identified such as Acland and Heathcoat.

Let me know what you think! 

[FROGSMILE]

Same unit.  Still a really miserable looking lot.  They look like they all need a jolly good purge…

Edited 20 October , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Tawhiri]

5 hours ago, Tawhiri said:

Formally this is Godfrey Basil Herbert Mundy who was commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant on 23 January 1924 with the 96th (R Devon Yeo) Brigade.

Basil Mundy was making the headlines in the Antipodes four years later for his 'extravagance in living and heavy betting and gambling losses'.

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/DUNST19280625.2.64

43 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Same unit.  Still a really miserable looking lot.  They look like they all need a jolly good purge…

Perhaps at least one of them is contemplating his betting and gambling losses. 

Edited 20 October , 2022 by Tawhiri