Jump to content
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

RFC identification


Heroes16

Recommended Posts

Evening all, I have been browsing my original collection of Great War regimental photographs and have thought about posting some of them and understanding some of the history behind them.

This one seems interesting due to the number of Decorated Officers, mixed regIments and a few RFC members. I was wondering if any of you could shed a light as to the stories of some of these men if you recognise them from any of your own research!

There is no writing on the back of the photo other than the Photographers stamp J R Browning (Exeter)

Any help would be much appreciated

 

 

7F9D7DAD-E74C-4922-9ECE-1E6FCDFB6152.jpeg

87F4C125-80A0-49B4-85C3-CBD08EF5920A.jpeg

B017633B-89E3-42DA-A327-634ED59D5E90.jpeg

FD7D4E64-69C7-453A-9B77-6C7881E7AC67.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It’s a post WW1 photo of the Royal Devon Yeomanry Artillery formed in 1924.  You can see the majority of the officers are beribboned WW1 veterans.

”One of Devon’s oldest regiments, the Royal 1st Devon Yeomanry was formed in 1794, and was raised by Sir Stafford Northcot Bt. of Pynes, Exeter on the 15 May that year and was first called out for service on 13 April 1795 in aid of the civil power to put down a riot at Crediton, which had been caused by the high price of bread.”

“Following the First World War, it was decided that only the fourteen most senior yeomanry regiments would be retained as horsed cavalry, with the rest being transferred to other roles.  As a result, on 7 June 1920, the Royal 1st Devon Yeomanry was amalgamated with the Royal North Devon Yeomanry to form the Royal Devon Yeomanry and simultaneously transferred to the Royal Artillery to form 11th (Devon) Army Brigade, RFA.“

NB.  Looking at the less than happy faces I’d suggest that the photo was perhaps taken not long after the unit was formed and losing their horses, but that’s just my conjecture.  They certainly look fairly melancholy.  The centrally seated senior officer with gorget tabs and staff cap badge is a full colonel and probably the Regimental Colonel.  Only two are wearing RFC wings, simply indicating that they served as pilots during WW1 (this may have been as permanent cadre RFC, or some other regiment on temporary attachment for an operational flying tour).  The Territorial Army was formed in 1921 as replacement for the TF which had been stood down at the end of the war.  The regiment wore its own new cap badge, but with RA collar badges (grenade above scroll inscribed UBIQUE).

959FA8C2-3246-4135-BD1E-8A5E9B8BD514.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow thanks for all the info Frogsmile. Wouldn’t even know where to begin with this photo.

Will see if I can put some names to the photo, however I fear with so much information and exceptions out there it will take time, but at least that’s part of the fun! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Heroes16 said:

Wow thanks for all the info Frogsmile. Wouldn’t even know where to begin with this photo.

Will see if I can put some names to the photo, however I fear with so much information and exceptions out there it will take time, but at least that’s part of the fun! 

At least it’s a complete unit, which will make your task easier.  Were I a betting man I’d wager the photo was taken in 1921, when the Territorial Army was created with new terms of reference to replace the Territorial Force.

Afternote:  there is conflicting information about when the regiment was formed post war, some saying 1920 and others 1924.  The newspaper article posted by Charlie seems to clarify the earlier date as correct, but I expect it took a further few years for the two forming Yeomanry units to tidy up their affairs and complete the merger, which would have involved disposing of regimental property and agreeing the new drill halls and stations in the County of Devon.

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

At least it’s a complete unit, which will make your task easier.  Were I a betting man I’d wager the photo was taken in 1921, when the Territorial Army was created with new terms of reference to replace the Territorial Force.

That’s very true! Once again thanks for all your help Frogsmile! 

Does it necessarily mean the RFC Officers were connected with the artillery during the war or is it simply a part of the amalgamation that they ended up with this unit?

Must of been strange for new recruits joining the TF and seeing all of there officers with so many decorations! 
 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Heroes16 said:

That’s very true! Once again thanks for all your help Frogsmile! 

Does it necessarily mean the RFC Officers were connected with the artillery during the war or is it simply a part of the amalgamation that they ended up with this unit?

Must of been strange for new recruits joining the TF and seeing all of there officers with so many decorations! 
 

 

No there’s not necessarily a connection between the officers with wings and the artillery, they could have previously served with any unit, including even the permanent cadre of the RFC.  Aircrew were made up from a combination of those badged RFC, and those from other parts of the Army on attachment.  Many of these left the Army at the end of the war (even when they did not wish to do so), but then subsequently elected to joint the new Territorial Army when it was formed in 1921.

The Territorial Army (TA) was different to its predecessor, the Territorial Force (TF), in that from the outset it was explicit that it wasn’t just primarily for home defence, but a full Reserve Army, for deployment wherever the nation required it.  This was to avoid the muddle that emerged in 1914, when there were so many Territorials who (for understandable reasons at the time) would not commit to leaving their families and going overseas.  To support this contract between citizen soldier and State, the TA soldier received a much clearer undertaking, based on experience that the government gained from WW1, that their families would be properly supported and provided for if they had to leave them.  

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Monthly Army Lists available from the National Library of Scotland only go up to December 1919, but I would have thought there would have been a hefty overlap - after all these were already units that should have reverted to peacetime strength.

You can find the Officer establishment of the Royal 1st Devon Yeomanry and the Royal North Devon Yeomany here: https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/109424753

As far as connections with the flying services is concerned, Captain W.H.D. Acland, M.C. of the 1st Devons is also shown as holding the A.F.C.
The Air Force Cross was only instituted in June 1918, after the creation of the R.A.F.
His record of airmans services has him as William Henry Dyke Acland. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8187317

One of the two officers with wings looks like he might have the ribbon for an AFC.
1527115399_AFCRibbonsourcedWikipedia.png.fe8aad6a63af7da0c06cf0c3fce935db.pngImage courtesy Wikipedia.

I could only find one picture online for William Henry Dyke Acland, (aka the 3rd Baronet Acland), and that was on the MyHeritage website. I'm not entirely convinced they are the same individual, but it is possible.

1106462118_WilliamAclandPanelv1.png.9834dbd1ba422be3b33d7d34876f5f58.png

All image rights remain with the current owners. I do not claim any new IP had been created in producing the above image.

While for the North Devons Captain J. H. Baring-Gould, Lieutenant E. A. Lloyd and Lieutenant V.G. Emery, are all shown as "f.c.", i.e flying corps.
John Hilary Baring-Gould. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8265409
Too many E.A. Lloyd's and the AIR76 is in the name of V.G. Emery.https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8257968

Looking at the titled officers, I tried an image search for Earl Fortescue, the Honourable Colonel of the North Devon. He was the 4th Earl and while I couldn't find a helpful image of him I did find a picture of his second living son, (and the future 6th Earl), the Honourable Denzil George Fortescue, M.C. T.D. , commander of this Artillery unit in the late thirties. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denzil_Fortescue,_6th_Earl_Fortescue

He is probably Captain the Honourable D.G. Fortescue, M.C. shown in column 345. I think there is potentially two matches in the group picture, so let the viewers decide.:)

549502655_DenzilFortescuePanelv1.png.c2ab70ddfca03a436b7a15d55a69b201.png

All image rights remain with the current owners. I do not claim any new IP had been created in producing the above image.

Past my bedtime and I really should be focused on my own project over the next few days, but hopefully that's a starter for ten as they say!

Cheers,
Peter

Edited by PRC
Add disclaimer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Following up the pointers from frogsmile and PRC, this Findmypast newspapers article may provide some names to investigate?

Western Times 19/7/21

chrome_screenshot_1666163278941.png.ed2bce3bad51347361703e20ce7824a7.png

Edited by charlie962
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, PRC said:

The Monthly Army Lists available from the National Library of Scotland only go up to December 1919, but I would have thought there would have been a hefty overlap - after all these were already units that should have reverted to peacetime strength.

You can find the Officer establishment of the Royal 1st Devon Yeomanry and the Royal North Devon Yeomany here: https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/109424753

As far as connections with the flying services is concerned, Captain W.H.D. Acland, M.C. of the 1st Devons is also shown as holding the A.F.C.
The Air Force Cross was only instituted in June 1918, after the creation of the R.A.F.
His record of airmans services has him as William Henry Dyke Acland. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8187317

One of the two officers with wings looks like he might have the ribbon for an AFC.
1527115399_AFCRibbonsourcedWikipedia.png.fe8aad6a63af7da0c06cf0c3fce935db.pngImage courtesy Wikipedia.

I could only find one picture online for William Henry Dyke Acland, (aka the 3rd Baronet Acland), and that was on the MyHeritage website. I'm not entirely convinced they are the same individual, but it is possible.

1106462118_WilliamAclandPanelv1.png.9834dbd1ba422be3b33d7d34876f5f58.png

All image rights remain with the current owners. I do not claim any new IP had been created in producing the above image.

While for the North Devons Captain J. H. Baring-Gould, Lieutenant E. A. Lloyd and Lieutenant V.G. Emery, are all shown as "f.c.", i.e flying corps.
John Hilary Baring-Gould. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8265409
Too many E.A. Lloyd's and the AIR76 is in the name of V.G. Emery.https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8257968

Looking at the titled officers, I tried an image search for Earl Fortescue, the Honourable Colonel of the North Devon. He was the 4th Earl and while I couldn't find a helpful image of him I did find a picture of his second living son, (and the future 6th Earl), the Honourable Denzil George Fortescue, M.C. T.D. , commander of this Artillery unit in the late thirties. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denzil_Fortescue,_6th_Earl_Fortescue

He is probably Captain the Honourable D.G. Fortescue, M.C. shown in column 345. I think there is potentially two matches in the group picture, so let the viewers decide.:)

549502655_DenzilFortescuePanelv1.png.c2ab70ddfca03a436b7a15d55a69b201.png

All image rights remain with the current owners. I do not claim any new IP had been created in producing the above image.

Past my bedtime and I really should be focused on my own project over the next few days, but hopefully that's a starter for ten as they say!

Cheers,
Peter

Brilliant work Peter, in your usual impeccable style.   I think that you have correctly identified Captain the Honourable D.G. Fortescue, M.C. as the right side (as we look) image of the two you offered. 

19 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Following up the pointers from frogsmile and PRC, this Findmypast newspapers article may provide some names to investigate?

Western Times 19/7/21

chrome_screenshot_1666163278941.png.ed2bce3bad51347361703e20ce7824a7.png

An excellent spot Charlie, you seem to have found a most likely annual camp relating directly to the subject photograph.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

What is the armband of the senior officer?

It is the artillery staff armlet - scarlet with centrally positioned gun.

124061CD-6760-4D8B-A4A2-344FD43FAE7D.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Acland was mentioned in Despatches in the Gazette of 15.10.1915, when he appears to have been serving with 5 Squadron, and the seated person with wings in the photo is sporting an oak leaf on what is presumably his Victory medal ribbon, so the identification is looking good.  He subsequently seems to have commanded training squadrons in the UK as a Major (Temporary).

According to Airhistory.org.uk, there are also NA files for him under reference WO 372/24/107 and WO 372/1/11076 as well as the AIR 76 reference quoted earlier.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I think that you have correctly identified Captain the Honourable D.G. Fortescue, M.C. as the right side

The Wikipedia sourced picture was apparently from a studio session with Bassano Limited that took place on the 28th February 1928. There are other images from the same session held by the National Portrait Gallery. I thought you, (and others), might enjoy him in the full dress uniform of the Regiment. Doesn't look like they were forgetting their Yeomanry heritage :)

1521236657_DenzilGeorgeFortescueatBassanoLtdStudio28021928sourcedNationalPortraitGallery.png.50eab16a2456fc54301565d64f4639f5.png

Image courtesy of the National Portrait Gallery.

Cheers,
Peter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Heroes16 et al,

Hope you don't mind but I've taken the liberty of numbering the individuals in the officer group picture in order to help with the identification process.

1264066014_RoyalNorthDevonYeomanryArtilleryOfficergroupnumberedv1.png.9a02dc6857cc370d804e8d07ff38e741.png
All image rights remain with the source owner.

Running through what I think I can see, adding in whats been discussed so far:-

1: Captain? Ex RAF \ RFC, 1914/15 Star & BWM & VM?
2: 2nd Lieutenant ? No medal ribbons
3: Captain? Possible MC? Or 1914/15 Star & BWM & VM?
4: Lieutenant? Believed to be Captain The Honourable Denzil George Fortescue.
5: 2nd Lieutenant ? No medal ribbons
6: Lieutenant ? No medal ribbons
7: Lieutenant? 1914/15 Star & BWM & VM?
8: Lieutenant ? No medal ribbons
9: 2nd Lieutenant? Believe it’s just a mark on the photograph rather than a ribbon.
10: Captain. 1914/15 Star & BWM & VM?
11: Believed to be Captain William Henry Dyke Acland.
12: ?? 1914/15 Star & BWM & VM?
13: Chaplain? Adjutant? Arm Brassard on his right arm? South Africa Medals? 1914/15 Star & BWM & VM?
14: Captain? 1914/15 Star & BWM & VM? Either CO or adjutant to man on his left.
15: ??. Possible MC? 1914/15 Star & BWM & VM? Possible CO.
16: Staff Officer? Arm brassard on his left arm – artillery. Unknown award? 1914/15 Star & BWM & VM?
17: ?? 1914/15 Star & BWM & VM?
18: ?? Unknown award? 1914/15 Star & BWM & VM?
19: 2nd Lieutenant ? No medal ribbons
20: 2nd Lieutenant ? No medal ribbons
21: 2nd Lieutenant ? No medal ribbons

Hope that helps,
Peter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, PRC said:

The Wikipedia sourced picture was apparently from a studio session with Bassano Limited that took place on the 28th February 1928. There are other images from the same session held by the National Portrait Gallery. I thought you, (and others), might enjoy him in the full dress uniform of the Regiment. Doesn't look like they were forgetting their Yeomanry heritage :)

1521236657_DenzilGeorgeFortescueatBassanoLtdStudio28021928sourcedNationalPortraitGallery.png.50eab16a2456fc54301565d64f4639f5.png

Image courtesy of the National Portrait Gallery.

Cheers,
Peter

It’s certainly a splendid uniform Peter, and his portrait sitting truly must have marked the end of an era.

NB.  Interesting that the Chairman of John Player & Sons (tobacco and cigarettes) was in the regiment.

4ADBFFB5-6EF0-4F76-B273-374254BCF19C.jpeg

 

61DEC894-9E9C-4F76-9F36-6E1F99047E51.jpeg

55F21D74-B7A5-4C1B-8FFF-D47F041537CF.jpeg

 

 

5B797D47-E2AD-4011-95D3-DAF8F1AC9A99.jpeg

AA2232DA-06E4-4559-A20C-3E90BE598605.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Once again some excellent information and help!

Thanks @PRC for the numbering will definitely make the identification process easier

@FROGSMILE very interesting to know about the chairman!

I do have other regimental photos which are like these and many of the Officers and NCOs have decorations. Unfortunately whilst being original photographs most of them lack any useful information which could be used to identify the individuals with in. I will post other photos I have in the coming days, as they may be of use to some of you! Especially if you recognise the individual and needed to add another photo of them to your own research etc

1 hour ago, PRC said:

@Heroes16 et al,

Hope you don't mind but I've taken the liberty of numbering the individuals in the officer group picture in order to help with the identification process.

1264066014_RoyalNorthDevonYeomanryArtilleryOfficergroupnumberedv1.png.9a02dc6857cc370d804e8d07ff38e741.png
All image rights remain with the source owner.

Running through what I think I can see, adding in whats been discussed so far:-

1: Captain? Ex RAF \ RFC, 1914/15 Star & BWM & VM?
2: 2nd Lieutenant ? No medal ribbons
3: Captain? Possible MC? Or 1914/15 Star & BWM & VM?
4: Lieutenant? Believed to be Captain The Honourable Denzil George Fortescue.
5: 2nd Lieutenant ? No medal ribbons
6: Lieutenant ? No medal ribbons
7: Lieutenant? 1914/15 Star & BWM & VM?
8: Lieutenant ? No medal ribbons
9: 2nd Lieutenant? Believe it’s just a mark on the photograph rather than a ribbon.
10: Captain. 1914/15 Star & BWM & VM?
11: Believed to be Captain William Henry Dyke Acland.
12: ?? 1914/15 Star & BWM & VM?
13: Chaplain? Adjutant? Arm Brassard on his right arm? South Africa Medals? 1914/15 Star & BWM & VM?
14: Captain? 1914/15 Star & BWM & VM? Either CO or adjutant to man on his left.
15: ??. Possible MC? 1914/15 Star & BWM & VM? Possible CO.
16: Staff Officer? Arm brassard on his left arm – artillery. Unknown award? 1914/15 Star & BWM & VM?
17: ?? 1914/15 Star & BWM & VM?
18: ?? Unknown award? 1914/15 Star & BWM & VM?
19: 2nd Lieutenant ? No medal ribbons
20: 2nd Lieutenant ? No medal ribbons
21: 2nd Lieutenant ? No medal ribbons

Hope that helps,
Peter

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The newspaper list found by Charlie includes Major J.F. Shelley.

The December 1919 British Army Monthly list has a Captain J.F. Shelley on the establishment of the Royal 1st Devon Yeomanry, but attached to the 16th Battalion, Rifle Brigade. Seniority was from the 11th November 1915.

There is a Medal Index Card for a Captain Sir John F. Shelley, Baronet, Royal 1st Devonshire Yeomanry and 16th Battalion, Rifle Brigade, (although it’s noted on the card that he only succeeded to the title in March 1931). He first landed in Gallipoli on October 1915.
When he applied for his medals in March 1920 he was still a Captain. Contact addresses are in Crediton, Devon.

No obvious long papers – so could have been weeded out of existance as well as lost in the fire, or he continued to serve into world war 2.

Sir John Frederick Shelley, 10th Baronet Shelley of Michelgrove was born in the St Georges Hanover Square District of London on the 14th October 1884. He succeeded to the title in 1931. He died at Crediton on the 8th March 1976. https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Shelley-879

Educated Winchester and Trinity College, Cambridge. Reached the rank of Major with the “Royal 1st Devon Yeomanry (Territorial Army.)". Justice of the Peace, High Sheriff of Devon (1938), Deputy Lieutenant of Devon, (1939), Chairmen of Devon County Council 1946-55.
https://www.thepeerage.com/p1733.htm

The County Council commissioned a picture of him which has been used to make the comparison below. https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/sir-john-f-shelley-bt-chairman-of-devon-county-council-19461955-95100

1849979946_JohnFrederickShelleypossiblematchpanel1.png.ade913fa4e765d76d90ed8c67556a152.png

All image rights remain with the current owners. I do not claim any new IP had been created in producing the above image.

There potentially may be additional pictures of him in these newspapers. (and others), if anyone can give them a look on FindMyPast \ British Newspaper Archives, (or whatever Ancestry have now :)

707658926_FMPNewspapersShelleyscreenshot191022no1.png.1d269db00419eb79cf82b9e48bc0e6cc.png

554673488_FMPNewspapersShelleyscreenshot191022no2.png.1a45f4c7f0c312087c51d3844e17100d.png

405249020_FMPNewspapersShelleyscreenshot191022no3.png.9faa32bec4e59638d33a7d9633d98fae.png

Cheers,
Peter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So you could easily get a newspaper and a packet of fags….

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

The Tatler June 1924 has the OPs photo and kindly provides all the names!!

chrome_screenshot_1666198412860.png.ec9d69209583c18185e9454a5b371db8.png

Brilliant find Charlie:)
Good to know I got Acland right, but Fortescue & Shelley weren't even present!

Cheers,

Peter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, PRC said:

Brilliant find Charlie:)
Good to know I got Acland right, but Fortescue & Shelley weren't even present!

Cheers,

Peter

I do commiserate - I thought it was Fortescue too with your comparative photos.  It’s those damned standard issue military moustaches, Peter!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks all for your help in investigating this! Been a pleasure to watch it all unfold!

Special thanks to Charlie for finding the printed photo in the tatler! 😀

Edited by Heroes16
Grammer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Captain Martyn is an interesting one.  Ex-Wiltshire Regt, Indian Army 1908, Rutter Barry Martyn was one of the original RFC men who flew to France on 13th August 1914 at a Lieutenant with 2 Sq.  http://www.airhistory.org.uk/rfc/EF3.html .  A flight Commander and Captain by the end of the year, He became a T Major and commanded 22 Squadron opn the Western Front in December 1915 and a T Lt-Col commanding a Wing in December 1916.

In June 1939 he is Gazetted a Flying Officer in the RAF https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/34713/page/7046/data.pdf promoted from pilot Officer

He resigned his Commission in 1943 as a Squadron Leader.

Plenty of info on airhistory, but not all that much on him in a quick look on the web.  "R.B. Martyn" gets the most hits.  I can't help feeling there ought to be quite a story there.  Trying a different search engine might reveal more (I tried Duck Duck Go)

Edited by pierssc
Typo!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, pierssc said:

Captain Martyn is an interesting one.  Ex-Wiltshire Regt, Indian Army 1908, Rutter Barry Martyn was one of the original RFC men who flew to France on 13th August 1914 at a Lieutenant with 2 Sq.  http://www.airhistory.org.uk/rfc/EF3.html .  A flight Commander and Captain by the end of the year, He became a T Major and commanded 22 Squadron opn the Western Front in December 1915 and a T Lt-Col commanding a Wing in December 1916.

In June 1939 he is Gazetted a Flying Officer in the RAF https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/34713/page/7046/data.pdf promoted from pilot Officer

He resigned his Commission in 1943 as a Squadron Leader.

Plenty of info on airhistory, but not all that much on him in a quick look on the web.  "R.B. Martyn" gets the most hits.  I can't help feeling there ought to be quite a story there.  Trying a different search engine might reveal more (I tried Duck Duck Go)

If you are not aware, there appears to be a photo of him as part of 2 Squadron in "A Contemptible Little Flying Corps" by McInnes & Webb, 1991, pages 34-35:

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/A_Contemptible_Little_Flying_Corps/O2G-BAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&printsec=frontcover

Martyn.jpg

Martyn 2.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...