1914 maps

[AOK4]

7 hours ago, Howard said:

OK, but most come from the 1800s, some as early as the 1860s.

Howard

We talk about Belgian maps and if I recall correctly these were all updated and from 1904.

[Howard]

7 hours ago, AOK4 said:

We talk about Belgian maps and if I recall correctly these were all updated and from 1904.

 

Yes and no. Take for example map id m_84_000457 in TrenchMapper. Surveys and levelling, 1861, terrain revisions 1883, transport revisions 1914.

That means the basic map dates from 1861 despite it having 1914 as its latest revision date. It is not possible just from the map to say when a specific feature or place name was changed. A revsion is not a redrawing.

I don’t know the Belgian practice but when the Ordnance Survey drew maps of the UK, they had specific and very strict rules for naming places, they were not allowed to ask just anyone locally, they had a list of “responsible” people like doctors or clerics so places were marked on the map according to those people. This is a slow and sometimes contentious task so place names tend to resist revisions.

Howard

[Old Forge]

I'm pretty sure the Belgian 1;100,000 map as used is included in the OH maps. I've used printouts when visiting the ground. Here's an attempt to map out 2/Wilts war diary up to 24 Oct 14 - note Ekternest.

All the best,

Richard

[DavidEngle]

I investigated the above link that does not open for everyone, and discovered this:

https://shop.ngi.be/fr/cartes-historiques/

note: I am a brand new member to GFW, and may not know all the rules regarding the posting of advertising. I only off this up because at one time or another the above link did open and more clues to its whereabouts may be fond on this page that I present to you.

David

[lostinspace]

10 hours ago, Old Forge said:

I'm pretty sure the Belgian 1;100,000 map as used is included in the OH maps

This series is available on the McMaster website. The image above is from Ostend 1:  http://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/islandora/object/macrepo%3A70212?page=1
You can download the entire map (roughly 1 gig each) or snip out the area of interest. I did find (online) the map that C.R. Ballard (1 Norfolk) used at Mons which seems to be from this 1:100,000 set.

Dave
 

[Howard]

That 1:100,000 is also on TrenchMapper, id=m_002134

The British had good 1:100,000 maps before the war as they were thought suitable for a war of movement.

It is interesting to compare the 1861 Belgian map with this one, some similarities such as the black squares along the Menin Road but different depiction of the railway. It is very unlikely that the British surveyed the area in the decades before the war so the planimetry and place names would have been taken from available maps.

Howard

[brianmorris547]

An example. From the December 1914 WD of 5 Div HQ General Staff.

WO 95/1510.

[lostinspace]

An interesting 1:10,000 map provided by the 1st Printing Coy., R.E. Messines is just off the map to the right. If you look on Google Earth there appears to be a German bunker located just to the south of the road between Wulverghem and Messines, as well as the Messines Ridge British Cemetery. Thanks for posting it.
Dave

[brianmorris547]

Another example from the November 1914 WD of 2 Infantry Brigade, 1 Div. WO 95/1267 (Ancestry p 158). 1:10 000 Hollebeke.

[Howard]

There are two versions of that map on TrenchMapper, id=m_96_000020 and id=ma_000730 but with a lot of trench detail

Howard

[brianmorris547]

Three more examples from the November / December 1914 WD of 8 Div HQ GS.

Courtesy TNA WO 95/1671.

[grantmal]

Thanks for all the interesting contributions. My original question has been well and truly answered.

I was trying to find a street map of Ypres to place the various buildings used as hospitals during 1st Ypres, which led me to this website, which includes the highly detailed mid 19th C 'commune'/cadastre maps of Belgium. 

Ended up screenshotting the relevant maps in close-up and then stitching them together.....hours of fun....here's Poperinghe as an example:

BUT instead of confirming the Eksternest/Westhoek situation, the maps have thrown up more questions.

Here's Westhoek on the Zonnebeke Commune map, with X marking the spot where it is usually found on the road south from Frezenberg:

And here's a (zoomed) contemporary postcard that helpfully includes both Externest and Westhoek:

....and a November 1914 Brigade HQ war diary effort that places the village in its 'usual' spot but lets the reader choose what to call it.....

[Howard]

16 minutes ago, grantmal said:

I was trying to find a street map of Ypres to place the various buildings used as hospitals during 1st Ypres, which led me to this website, which includes the highly detailed mid 19th C 'commune'/cadastre maps of Belgium. 

 

 

There is a Great War era town plan of Ypres on TrenchMapper. Right click, choose Map ID Jump and use m_026465.

It is not dated, like so many Graet War maps, but was printed by 1st Printing Coy. RE GHQ so is assumed to be about the right date.

Howard

[brianmorris547]

The only street map of Ypres that I have seen is in the 1915 WD of 5 Div HQ GS. It is a map of the billeting areas but the streets are named. Hope it is of some use. 

Courtesy TNA WO 95/1512

Brian

[LDT006]

7 hours ago, grantmal said:

I was trying to find a street map of Ypres to place the various buildings used as hospitals

There is also this one:

http://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/islandora/object/macrepo%3A71270

It has street names and all major buildings including convents and hospitals.

[LDT006]

There is a topic on medical facilities in Ypres:

 

[grantmal]

Thanks for the maps, and the link that features the Ypres Cadastre map which I sweated over....

And, as if the Westhoek/Externest isn't confusing enough, here's the The Royal Artillery War Commemoration Book describing the 70th Battery, 34th Brigade RFA's disposition on 31 October 1914: 

Four guns (right and centre sections), south-west of the village of Molenaarelshoek (sometimes known as Nord Westhoek) and just clear of the north-east corner of the Polygon de Zonnebeke.

[grantmal]

Trudging back to Eksternest.....this from a German panorama taken from Passchendaele Church steeple in July 1916:

[grantmal]

Found this relevant snippet from the 41st Brigade RFA war diary, in which O M Lund recounts his experience of the 1 Sept 1914 fight at Villers Cotterets, when he was Signal Officer to Brigade HQ:

'...reference map Soissons Sheet 33 1/80,000 (the only map we had in 1914).'