1914 maps

[grantmal]

Reading through various BEF war diaries of units around Ypres in October/November 1914, many of the map references are given as 'below the E of Eksternest' or 'near the G of Ghuleveldt.'

Can anyone point me to the map/s in use at the time?

Thanks!

Edited 13 October , 2022 by grantmal

[TEW]

I don't think there are any 1914 maps available online.

The best bet is to try brigade and division level diaries and other battalions of the same brigade and possibly the other brigades.

The only 1914 maps I recall seeing are small tracings or sketch maps.

If you did find one you'd have to hope that 'Eksternest' is printed in the same place as the diary reference.

TEW

[AOK4]

I would assume the British used the Belgian maps from 1904. For a complete overview of these, see http://www.cartesius.be/arcgis/home/webmap/viewer.html?useExisting=1&services=40fadc1825334e1c8d05588eb32cf0d5

Jan

[fritz]

Nice one. Thank you Jan!

[grantmal]

Thanks for the replies.

Unfortunately I can't get that page to open, Jan, not sure why.

I did find this 1920 'Report on Survey on the Western Front 1914-1918,' [WO 161/113] which contains the following:

Section III.—Map Supply.

1. Early History.

(a) Arrangements for the E.F.

(a) Small scale maps had been prepared for the original Expeditionary Force in the event of a possible war on the Continent. These comprised one strategical map on the scale of 6 miles to 1 in. (1/380,160) and 26 sheets of a tactical map. The latter consisted of 10 sheets of the 1/100,000 of Belgium (including the old small Mons sheet) and 16 sheets of the 1/80,000 of France. The area covered was that north of a line drawn from Le Havre to Luxembourg.

In addition to the above maps plates had been prepared for sheets to the south of this area from which a supply could be printed quickly if required. The tactical maps were divided into five ''sets," lettered A to E, each consisting of from four to six sheets, and the maps were packed in boxes containing either a supply of all sets or of one set only. The boxes were kept with the mobilisation stores, and on the outbreak of war were taken to the front by each Division. The plan was that the particular set required would be issued and the remainder kept in the divisional transport, or, if it appeared that they were unlikely to be required, would be sent back to the Base.

The whole of the first issue was thus with the troops in the field. The arrangement for replacement was that another complete issue would be printed and sent to the Overseas Base as soon as mobilisation was ordered.

It was not long before the whole of these maps had found their way to the Base on returning supply trains or had been left in Belgium.

The criticisms that may be made on this scheme are as follows

(1) The number of maps carried by the troops was altogether too great. The supply of 26 sheets for a single Infantry Brigade weighed considerably over a ton, or, allowing for one set issued, meant about one ton to be carried in transport.

(ii) The division of maps into sets was a mistake. It meant that in order to obtain, say, two sheets required for operations, two sets, amounting to 10 or 12 sheets, might have to be issued. It is impossible in a campaign to know what set will be required or if operations will fall conveniently upon a set, so that packing by single sheets is the only practical method

(iii) The break of scale in the middle of the area was a grave mistake. It was due to the decision that as the French would fight on the 1/80,000 we must do so also. There was practically no overlap between the two scales, the result being that troops had actually to fight on two adjoining maps of different scale and style.

(b) Supply during Retreat.

(b) The troops quickly got off the area for which maps had been supplied. A stock of 1/80,000 sheets of the area to the south had been obtained, and a number of these were recovered from Rouen, while others were obtained from the Service Geographique in Paris. A few hundred of each sheet was all that it was possible to obtain in those days, but the smallness of the force made these numbers enough to be of some use. Supply was carried out personally by the Officer if 1/c Maps, G.H.Q., assisted at times by officers of the Intelligence Corps.

(c) Supply until Armies were Formed.

(c) From that time until the First and Second Armies were formed map supply was carried out direct to Divisions and occasionally Brigades by Maps, G.H.Q., with the aid of one boxcar. The supplies consisted mainly of small scale maps, supplemented by a few 1/20,000, produced by photographic enlargement of the 1/80,000.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

5 hours ago, AOK4 said:

I would assume the British used the Belgian maps from 1904. For a complete overview of these, see http://www.cartesius.be/arcgis/home/webmap/viewer.html?useExisting=1&services=40fadc1825334e1c8d05588eb32cf0d5

Jan

15 minutes ago, grantmal said:

Unfortunately I can't get that page to open, Jan, not sure why.

Yes, blank page for me too...

[grantmal]

Further to TEW's suggestion, the maps I've come across in Brigade and Divisional war diaries are either sketch maps or later maps that have been inserted,

like this one from the 4th (Guards) Brigade's November 1914 diary:

Some of the most interesting and illuminating stuff in the 1914 war diaries I've been reading are narratives and personal diaries of officers which have been added postwar, often for the purpose of clearing up events for the official history, or for regimental histories. The epic narrative of the 4th Field Ambulance during the retreat from Mons is another great example, written in December 1915 to replace a missing portion of the original diary.

[AOK4]

If the link doesn't work, try www.cartesius.be and then search for 1904. The first result is the map of Belgium completely made up of the 1904 maps 1:20,000.

[grantmal]

Might be my browser, Jan, as I can now get the page to load but can't get a map to appear. Will try another.

Meanwhile a forum comrade has kindly sent this pm:

"There were British Paper Maps issued.

     I have one which was issued to a member of the Mounted Military Police who landed in France in October 1914 earning the Clasp and Roses.   

     It is Lille 8 with a scale 1:80000 or 1 inch to 1.26 miles

     It was sponsored  by the Geographical Section, General Staff  and printed at the Ordnance Survey Office, Southampton,1912.

     It covers from Fleurbaix in the West through Lille to Tournai in the East and down to and beyond Douai in the South.

     The adjoining sheets(which I don't have) are Mons, Namur to the East and Cambrai and Rocroi to the South.

     As you can imagine being thin paper it is very fragile so with hard usage they would soon disintegrate.

     Trust this helps."

It does, thanks.

[Howard]

15 hours ago, grantmal said:

Reading through various BEF war diaries of units around Ypres in October/November 1914, many of the map references are given as 'below the E of Eksternest' or 'near the G of Ghuleveldt.'

Can anyone point me to the map/s in use at the time?

Thanks!

As stated in this thread, the maps mainly available were the French and Belgian 1:80,000. There were good 1:100,000 British maps but these were useless for use in smaller areas.

In TrenchMapper we have every map from the IWM that covers that area. Centred on Geluveld there are 321. None are 1914 and a tiny number from 1915.

I have transcribed the whole of The Report on Survey on the Western Front, that is available on the TrenchMapper help Knowledge Centre. The report describes the woeful lack of maps and the very poor quality of the French and Belgian 1:80,000 series.

Under History of British Mapping in the Knowledge Centre, I wrote “Peter Chasseaud wrote a very comprehensive history of British survey and mapping on the Western Front entitled Artillery's Astrologers. His opening sentence states that "It is a considerable irony that France, which led the world in the 18th Century with the first scientifically based national survey, should by 1914 be one of the worst-mapped countries in Europe. It is no surprise to find that the mapping problem faced by the British Army in 1914 was very acute".

Howard

 

[grantmal]

Thanks, Howard.

I located an Oct 1914 map among the IWM's Ypres collection - which I actually have on my computer  - but Eksternest village is shown as Westhoek so it was not the map referenced in so many war diaries.

[AOK4]

I would still think that the British had access to the 1:20,000 Belgian maps by late 1914 (even the Germans had them after they captured Brussels) and that these were used.

[Howard]

1 hour ago, grantmal said:

Thanks, Howard.

I located an Oct 1914 map among the IWM's Ypres collection - which I actually have on my computer  - but Eksternest village is shown as Westhoek so it was not the map referenced in so many war diaries.

Indeed. One look at the double lettered JJ shows it was a very early version of the squaring. Of the 10,500 scans in the collection, just 2 use that system and it is not at all clear how many were published. Later maps had Revised System of Squaring at the top even on early 1915 maps so yours is very rare. The mapping style under the red squaring shows it is an enlarged 1:80,00 sheet, i.e. not a British map despite any War Office markings. The planimetry is poor, not nearly good enough for artillery- the main use of these maps.

If you have all or most of the map, would you be happy for us to add it to TrenchMapper?
That applies to any map free of copyright or publication restrictions. We would welcome any additions.

The map situation in 1914 was dire. There were the Plans Directeur, very high quality 1:20,000 sheets covering a lot of the British front but there is some confusion in the literature about who had copies, when and how many. Most agree that the 1st Battle of the Aisne was a catalyst to get the mapping effort going but even by September 1915 and the Battle of Loos that was not satisfactorily complete. It was by 1917- a stupendous achievement but 1914 and early 1915 was a very difficult time with mapping. That of course means finding good very early maps now in any collection is a matter of luck- war diaries etc. but many of those will be hand drawn.

Howard

 

[TEW]

Have you seen this?

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/battlefields/gazetteer-of-the-western-front/gazetteer-of-the-western-front-eksternest/

TEW

[Howard]

21 minutes ago, TEW said:

Have you seen this?

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/battlefields/gazetteer-of-the-western-front/gazetteer-of-the-western-front-eksternest/

TEW

Interesting, thanks.

Eksternest is shown on a German map but I did not see it on the handful of British maps I just looked at (it may be on others). In TrenchMapper, if you right click and choose Map ID Jump and use m_012601 you can see it. It is also on m_027985 but very fuzzy. It is handy to right click and add a marker then select various maps from the drop down.

These are reused 1:80,000 maps from the 1800s.  Eksternest it is not on the similar m_026598-01.

I suspect the map required in the OP is a reused 1:80,000 but it may be hard to track down which one. All the 1:80,000 maps are of poor quality. In the Great War, all sides used them reprinted as if they were their own. What is not obvious is that early 1:10,000 British sheets are redrawn (traced) from them and is why such maps are out but 150 yards in places, especially in latitude. Although the British eventually resurveyed the whole front, the Germans used some of these sheets right till the end.

It is interesting to note that in 1944 the GSGS republished some of these poor maps with a geological overprint in preparation for D-Day- still in use 60 or 70 years after being drawn.
Howard

 

[grantmal]

Yes, TEW, thanks. I did a fair bit of trawling for 'Eksternest/Externest' after coming across it in the 1914 diaries, and that map appeared in this GWF discussion.

Still can't load that website Jan, even with another browser. Mysterious. Any chance you could post a screenshot of the map between Ypres and Becelaere, please?

Howard, the Oct 1914 map came from a WFA CD-ROM of IWM Ypres maps/aerials, so unfortunately copyrighted to them. Thanks for the Trench Mapper details. So much to see.

[Howard]

8 minutes ago, grantmal said:

Yes, TEW, thanks. I did a fair bit of trawling for 'Eksternest/Externest' after coming across it in the 1914 diaries, and that map appeared in this GWF discussion.

Still can't load that website Jan, even with another browser. Mysterious. Any chance you could post a screenshot of the map between Ypres and Becelaere, please?

Howard, the Oct 1914 map came from a WFA CD-ROM of IWM Ypres maps/aerials, so unfortunately copyrighted to them. Thanks for the Trench Mapper details. So much to see.

That is fine, we have a formal agreement with the IWM. The TrenchMapper scans are the same ones used for the Mapping the Front DVDs.

Howard

[AOK4]

I seem to remember that the maps by the NGI (even old ones) are under copyright. The extract that you attached, is exactly the same as the NGI map of 1904. I see that it is a German copy from those maps (the German captured the whole collection and all plates I believe when taking Brussels in August 1914 and they used the maps as the base for their own maps).

Anyway, I don't understand the discussion about Eksternest. The name is probably very old (one would have to check Karel De Flou's "Woordenboek der Toponymie van Westelijk Vlaanderen, Vlaamsch Artesië, het Land van den Hoek, de graafschappen Guines en Boulogne en een gedeelte van het graafschap Ponthieu" for a historical overview). It seems Eksternest was the name for what is Westhoek on modern maps, while Westhoek was on the 1904 maps the crossroads Lotegatstraat/Grote Molenstraat). I wouldn't be surprised if the name Eksternest (literally magpie's nest) would be that of a café in that area.

Jan

[AOK4]

I will be passing by my local library this afternoon and will try to have a look at the "Dictionary of Toponymy".

Jan

[AOK4]

So, the name Eksternest appeared for the first time in 1846 as the name for a farm in that area and from 1873 onwards on the topographical maps.

[KernelPanic]

Re. the blank page issue, both Chrome and Safari show that the site is 'Not Secure' and therefore won't load on my Macs.

 

[TEW]

Had the same trouble with the Cartesius page not loading, seems to be ok with Firefox although it does say not secure.

Useful map source really. Nice topographical detail giving the lie of the land and interesting to see the pre-war detail.

TEW

 

[Howard]

49 minutes ago, TEW said:

Useful map source really. Nice topographical detail giving the lie of the land and interesting to see the pre-war detail.

 

That is true but the detail may be 40 years or more before the war.

Howard

[AOK4]

2 hours ago, Howard said:

That is true but the detail may be 40 years or more before the war.

Howard

??? That's the 1904 version.

[Howard]

1 hour ago, AOK4 said:

??? That's the 1904 version.

OK, but most come from the 1800s, some as early as the 1860s.

Howard