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French Local Defence Armband?


Stereoview Paul

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Hi All,

I have just spotted this French civilian wearing what seems to be an 'LD' armband - is this some form of Home Guard insignia. Photo was taken at LaGorgue in the summer of 1915.

Thanks Paul

 

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He also looks to be sporting some of puttees, short though they may be.

Simon

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1 hour ago, Stereoview Paul said:

Hi All,

I have just spotted this French civilian wearing what seems to be an 'LD' armband - is this some form of Home Guard insignia. Photo was taken at LaGorgue in the summer of 1915.

Thanks Paul

 

 

He's not French if that is Local Defence. It would be DL : Défence locale.

I have never come across anything like this.

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Looks as if I may be wrong - a second view shows three people with arm bands and I now think it is 'LC' not sure if that helps or not. In my mind they are too young or too old to be part of the regular army.

 

1500966523_LocalDefensePerhaps2.jpg.2effdb3292fbb7aab0ecf9d39b65d427.jpg

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I wonder if @battle of loosmight be able to help?

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Are they perhaps what is now known as Locally Employed Civilians (LEC's) ie civilians who are employed by the British Army to carry out unskilled labour work. The armband would be given to them to show that they were authorised to be in the close vicinity of troops, supplies and positions as a protection for being mistaken as spies. Three of those shown look as if they could be just under the aged for military service and the other (centre of second photo) perhaps too old or not yet called up from the reserve

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12 minutes ago, AOK4 said:

Labour Corps?

I was wondering that at first too, but if so it would be after 1917 and I’d expect marching troops in column-of-route to be wearing steel helmets by that period.  The date was given as 1915, well before the LC was formed.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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The actual date is the 28th August 1915, not much shadow so I can't estimate a time.

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On 12/10/2022 at 15:26, DavidOwen said:

Could it simply be "Local Civilian"?

I notice the younger one below the bridge(?) appears to be holding a fishing rod?

I don’t know David, but it’s very intriguing.  The concept of armbands originated with the French (brassards), and was only adopted by Britain during the 2nd Boer War as a best practice adopted from the French system for organising their formation HQ Staff and specialists.  If those shown were issued by the British Army LofC then that would seem one possibility, but they might also be issued perhaps by the French authorities and so the semantics (and grammar) might mean something different.  

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Photo was taken at 'Cow Bridge' in LaGorgue

409656442_CowbridgeMerville.jpg.abdcc4ced89bb52e14f7305229af3ed2.jpg

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Thanks, do we know which military units might be in control of that area at the time in order to see if any local orders may have been in force?

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Could it be workers on the local waterways, lock keepers etc.

58 DM.

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6 hours ago, Stereoview Paul said:

Photo was taken at 'Cow Bridge' in LaGorgue

409656442_CowbridgeMerville.jpg.abdcc4ced89bb52e14f7305229af3ed2.jpg

Perhaps the local Mairie (relevant to the bridge) will have some records.  I’ve generally found there to be a great deal of pride and interest in the local history of WW1 in France.   More so than with WW2 in some cases.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Good evening

this is the 1st time I see this type of armband.
these civilians wear this armband perhaps to indicate that they work for the British army or that they work for an articular industry exempting them from being mobilized?

as soon as the problem of fuel shortage in France is over, I will go and take a picture of this bridge.
I will also ask the question to the town hall of La Gorgue.

regards

michel

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5 minutes ago, battle of loos said:

Good evening

this is the 1st time I see this type of armband.
these civilians wear this armband perhaps to indicate that they work for the British army or that they work for an articular industry exempting them from being mobilized?

as soon as the problem of fuel shortage in France is over, I will go and take a picture of this bridge.
I will also ask the question to the town hall of La Gorgue.

regards

michel

Thank you Michel, it will be very interesting if we can find the answer.

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Hi Michel,

I was under the impression that we blew this bridge up whilst retreating from the Spring Offensive :(

But it would be fascinating to find out about the armbands.

Armbands were in use at the time by the BEF, marking troops attached to the Indian Army, but only in some photos and not others. The military police had a different arm band but I cannot see any detail.

Thanks Paul

 

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The military police armband was red letters - MP - on a black background.  That configuration stayed in use for WW2 also**.

The general officer in your photo is on the Indian Corps Staff and appears to be the GOC.   One of his subordinates is from the Meerut Division and very interestingly has added by hand ‘Garwhal’ (one of the regiments associated with the foothills) beneath.  Even more interestingly there is an Indian commissioned officer stood behind him.  There were very few of these and he too, a lieutenant, is wearing staff gorgets.

The group photo shows Formation HQ level signallers, including a commissioned officer (subaltern) with Sam Browne and shoulder chains.  The signallers are marked out with a signallers blue and white brassard, including one dispatch rider with the distinctive motorcycle goggles worn on his cap. Most of the British personnel in the photo are ASC.  One Indian signaller Corporal in the foreground is wearing a wristwatch, which seems quite incongruous given how expensive it would have been when compared with his pay.

NB. **sometime around 1960 the colours were reversed to black letters on red.

EA6C76AE-3918-43E8-B0CB-1F81D5528102.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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@Beaupre-sur-la-Lys is the man for anything to do with La Gorgue, I wonder if he has seen this?

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Thank you - great info on the signallers.

In the last picture we have Gen Willcocks, in the distance to his left we have his son and ADC, Lt J. L. Willcocks . The Meerut Armband is on Brig-Gen Blackader D.S.O. and the Indian Officer on the extreme left is Prince Hitendra who previously played first class cricket for Somerset (He survived the war only to succumb to the 1920 flu outbreak)

I thought I would leave you with a better view of the bridge

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Edited by Stereoview Paul
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Both are quite well known senior officers that you mention, one not least due to the similarity of his name with the groundbreaking BBC comedy series.  I’m wondering if Brig-Gen Blackader perhaps commanded a Garwhali Brigade within an Indian Division.

The photos are real snapshots in time of the type synonymous with personal albums rather than organised media shots and so seem highly evocative to me.  I note that General Willcocks’s ADC son is a Royal Highlanders (Black Watch) officer, and so I suspect that the highland battalion crossing the bridge in your photos is from that regiment.  A few of the men wear a plain glengarry as favoured by the RH, whilst many others have the relatively new balmorals that I seem to recall were reversible via their drab khaki lining.  When worn in that way they look curiously smooth and compact, especially when compared with the much larger Tam-o-shanter issued to replace it later on.  I imagine that @ronmarsdenwill be interested to see the photos given his dedicated interest in the regiment.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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