Concentration of Tanks in Aerial Photo - Help to identify Location Requested

[Stereoview Paul]

(See later in tread for Tank discussion)

OK, a really long shot here - this aerial view seems to have enough features that an identity may be possible.

As usual with RT views the caption may or may not be of any help. The photo may also not be oriented with north at the top as it has been published both ways up.

Cheers Paul

Edited 11 October , 2022 by Stereoview Paul
Evolution of subject!

[Howard]

The main junction in your photo seems to be at 57c.L.20.d.68.36 near Ribecourt.

If you put that map reference into TrenchMapper and centre the map on it, right click and use Map ID jump with id=m_98_000146 for a map that shows the Hindenburg line.

I hope that helps

 

Howard

[Stereoview Paul]

Fantastic, thank you so much - the small river is thus Le Riot and the other feature (not sure if it was a canal or a railway line, seems to have been ploughed in (but there is still a crop mark on the photo.)

[WhiteStarLine]

1 hour ago, Howard said:

right click and use Map ID jump with id=m_98_000146 for a map that shows the Hindenburg line

Brilliant work Howard and if Paul swaps to the georeferenced aerial photo, it matches his.  Using the opacity slider shows the ongoing impact from the trenches on the modern farmland. 

 

[Stereoview Paul]

Following the identification - I can now confirm that the French village in this related stereoview is the nearby Havrincourt

Thank you all

Paul

[Howard]

Go to TrenchMapper, right click and choose Map ID jump. If you use the map id p_006137 it will give a wider aerial photo of the area, so will p_006134.

Howard

[johntaylor]

Hi Howard, I'm amazed you managed to identify that so quickly and wondered if I could set another mystery photo challenge.

This fascinating aerial photo appears in Mapping the First World War by Peter Chasseaud, which gives the reference: 'Appearance of Tanks from the Air. Secret. SS 639. IWM Q 17757/12702.' The IWM reference doesn't reveal any more: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205252296

It may show in the same area as the Ribécourt photo, which saw a lot of tank action, but there are no clues. It would be great to know more!

Thanks,

John

Edited 10 October , 2022 by johntaylor

[Howard]

The weblink gives the IWM negative number Q 17757 which equals the TrenchMapper ID p_012702. It is not yet on the site as we don’t know where it is to georeference it! When we do I shall add it.

No luck so far but never give up.

I note the photo is printed by No. 4 Advanced Section, A.P & S.S. That of itself tells us little except that two other photos in the TrenchMapper collection are so marked and they cover sheet 62D. It does not tell us which squadron took the photo which would have been of help.

However, using techniques now used in modern OSINT (Bellingcat etc.), I tried to find the place. With the photo rotated North up, I note the linear feature on the left follows a bearing of 333 degrees and the feature that appears to join that at the top runs on a bearing of 55 degrees. Considering the other two sheets marked No. 4 Advanced Section are sheet 62D, I took a 1:40,000 sheet, added a layer and drew two lines at the those bearings then moved that shape over the map to see if anything matched. Naturally one has to remember the large scale of aerial photos so it will only match in a small area. If such a match was found it should also match the curved feature. Sadly nothing was found but a search on adjacent sheets may yield results.

We need more clues but they may not be forthcoming. Searches of tank war diaries etc. may yield some clues but I do not have those.

OSINT features of note, the trenches look almost straight in places, i.e. not regular communication trenches. The tanks are parked close in neat ranks in plain sight so are presumably beyond enemy observation and/or artillery range. That means we are looking several miles behind the British lines. There are numerous tank tracks so it looks like a marshalling area of some kind (war diary help here). The curved feature at the bottom crosses a trench so soldiers moving along the trench would be above ground when crossing, also implying it was way behind the lines.

Considering the general look and feel of the photo, I would guess it was part of an intelligence training scheme. Other photos in the collection with nearby IDs seem to be unrelated places so it maybe cherry picked to help teach interpretation rather than for direct operational use. If so we stand little chance of finding it.

The next photo in the list is p_012702 as shown here, supporting the idea that they are teaching aids, i.e. not concerned with where they are otherwise they would have been marked with a map reference on the reverse.

More research may yield clues.

Howard

 

The two other sheets marked No. 4 Advanced Section, A.P & S.S.

Sailly-Laurette 62D 62D J 24-36, K 19-33, P 6-30, Q 1-13    V  Sailly-Laurette, Cerisy-Gailly,

Morlancourt 62D 62D J 6-18, K 1-15.   03-May-18 V  Morlancourt

Attached P_012702, the TrenchMapper version of the photo and the next is sequence that may be related.

 

[johntaylor]

Thanks for this information Howard - the work you've done on this is tremendous and I'm sure it will eventually bear fruit. The photo appears to show an assembly area for tanks (or 'tankodrome') with more than two companies present and probably an entire battalion, so I would expect this to be some distance behind the lines (especially as the farm buildings look relatively undamaged). There is evidence of considerable tank activity, and it may well be associated with the previous photo which shows a number of tanks crossing a trenchline.

The link with other images from 62D may be relevant as this might place it somewhere east of Villers-Brettoneux, which was the scene of extensive tank operations in August 1918. Unfortunately I don't think it would be possible to pin down the location using Tank Corps War Diaries alone, as there was so much activity involving multiple battalions across a wide area. But tank records would almost certainly confirm the location and shed more light on what was going on, and roughly when it was taken.

Looking forward to hearing about any further insights,

John

 

 

 

Edited 10 October , 2022 by johntaylor

[Howard]

Help from Tim Slater, specialist in aerial photos:-

Howard,
I’ve seen this photograph before but as yet have not been able to locate it.
Ref the text at the top of the photograph. SS 639 is the Stationary Service reference number allocated to the publication by AP&SS, whereas the ‘I a/45241’ is the reference number allocated by the issuing authority in this case General Staff (Intelligence).
The first ‘Notes on the Interpretation of Aeroplane Photographs’ were issued in March 1917 (SS 550) with the 3rd edition issued in February 1918 (SS 631). The illustrations that accompanied the 3rd edition were SS 631 A and have the General Staff (Intelligence) issuing authority reference of 1a/42982.
You can use the General Staff (Intelligence) issuing authority reference to date bracket the tank photograph:
SS 709 - Ia/41393 - issued 30 Oct 17
SS 631 A - 1a/42982 - issued Feb 18
SS 634 - Ia/44346A - - issued 5 Feb 18
SS 639 - Ia/45241 - issued ?
SS 650 - Ia/49127 - issued 5 May 18
SS 714 - Ia/50096 - issued 1 Jun 18
So the tank photograph was likely taken and issued between the 5 Feb and 5 May 18.
If I can work out any more I’ll let you know.
Regards
Tim

Link here to source of SS publications.

Howard

[johntaylor]

That's really helpful Tim and Howard, thanks for this analysis which indicates the photo was taken several months earlier than I supposed. 

I notice that in the WFA print of the photo, there is the start of a reference number which presumably gave more details. Very frustrating that this has been cropped off the image.

John

[Howard]

Yes, it is frustrating when stuff gets cropped off. That is another clue to it being used for training, not mattering where it was.

I did a reverse image search on Tineye, Google etc. and all that came up was a copy on Pinterest from quite a while ago. Sadly no deatils.

The date may help when combined with "tank knowledge"- not sure how to put that but it is an area I know very little about. With a date and Tim's data that could narrow down the area to a specific sheet then it is simply pattern matching to find where it is especially if tank depots for those dates are known. Is that information available anywhere?

Howard

[WhiteStarLine]

9 hours ago, johntaylor said:

there is the start of a reference number which presumably gave more details.

I noticed that last night while looking at the original scanned image Howard did some 15 years ago.  I oriented the aerial so it was north up then I looked for map sheets with farms, trenches or localities.  Nothing was conclusive, so here is the list in case someone wants to double-check, or rule out, something.

The collection is not exhaustive but does hold over 20,000 entries on the Western Front.  The query simply retrieves places where the Great War reference includes '.N.9.'  I delayed posting as I hoped Howard would have a flash of genius and say "that was obviously taken at XXX":

Farm & Brewery    12.N.9.b.94.98    Vicinity of Zelte (dist 1723 m    farm    
Hoogtaijs Farm    12.N.9.d.7.6    Vicinity of Zelte (dist 1102 m    farm    
Duck Ponds    20.N.9.b.7.5    Vicinity of Woumen      pond    
Navet Buildings    28.N.9.a.4.6    Vicinity of Wijtschate     building    
Nevil Farm    28.N.9.b.4.3    Vicinity of Wijtschate     farm    
Willesden Junction    28.N.9.c.4.7    Vicinity of Wulvergem     road junction    
Kaalleput    28.N.9.c.5.1    Vicinity of Wulvergem    farm    
Nine Farm    28.N.9.c.64.98    Vicinity of Wulvergem     farm    
Brompton Road    36.N.9.a    Near Le Maisnil.    road    
Trou Post    36.N.9.a.48.42    Near Le Maisnil.    post    
le Trou    36.N.9.a.6.6    Vicinity of Le Maisnil     community    
Pinney's Avenue    36.N.9.a.68.07    Near Le Maisnil.    avenue    
Laves Post    36.N.9.b.50.39    Near Le Maisnil.    post    
Necklace Trench    36.N.9.c    Near Le Maisnil.    trench    
Nephew Trench    36.N.9.d    Near Le Maisnil.    trench    
Nudge Trench    36c.N.9.a.20.87    Near Bénifontaine.    trench    
August City Road    36c.N.9.a.6.2    Vicinity of Bénifontaine road    
Narrow Alley    36c.N.9.a.65.54    Near Bénifontaine.    alley    
Post Road    36c.N.9.b    Near Bénifontaine.    road    
Newgate Trench    36c.N.9.b.57.83    Near Bénifontaine.    trench    
Nuns Alley    36c.N.9.c.53.50    Vicinity of Éleu-dit-Leauwette    alley    
Puits No 2 (Condé S Puits)    36c.N.9.d.1.1    Vicinity of Éleu-dit-Leauwette    mineshaft    
Condé N Puits    36c.N.9.d.4.4    Vicinity of Éleu-dit-Leauwette    pit    
Airy Corner    51b.N.9.a.8.7    Vicinity of Blangy (dist 4973     road junction    
le Tronquoy    62b.N.9.a.2.9    Vicinity of Lehaucourt     farm    
Tronquoy Wood    62b.N.9.a.8.5    Vicinity of Lehaucourt     wood    
Fripons Trench    62b.N.9.d.64.92    Near Lehaucourt.    trench    
Fraudeur Trench    62b.N.9.d.88.29    Near Lehaucourt.    trench    
Guadeloupe Alley    62c.N.9.c.99.37        trench    
Victor Copse    62c.N.9.d.2.4    Vicinity of Dompierre-Becquinc    copse    
Quarry    62c.N.9.d.6.1    Vicinity of Dompierre-Becquinc    quarry    
 

[johntaylor]

Hi, that's a great initiative - I must admit I assumed it just said 'No' with an underlined superscript 'o', i.e. short for number, but I hope I'm wrong as it would be a great clue!

Re Howard's suggestion, the date is certainly helpful and the Tank Corps records may well be helpful in narrowing this down. The photo was taken at a time when the Tank Corps was undergoing significant expansion with the arrival and deployment of new battalions on the Western Front. All of these have War Diaries which should show the approximate locations of headquarters, tankodromes etc., though it would be a big job to search through all of them and match locations to map features.

I initially wondered about well-established facilities such as the Tank Driving School at Wailly south of Arras, but this was based on a former section of the German front line and I don't think there would have been any farm buildings with roofs left on. The other area where there were large concentrations of tanks was around St Pol-en-Ternoise, which was the Tank Corps rear base throughout the war and included the Central Workshops at Erin. However this was nowhere near the front line and I wouldn't expect to see any trench systems there (other than practice trenches).

The other possibility is that someone who knows more about Tank Corps operations in 1918 has a sudden brainwave, but beyond than that I think it would be a major job to trawl through all the available records.

The OSINT approach sounds much more impressive though it seems to have drawn a blank. Thanks for everyone's input though - I think we'll get there in the end!

John

 

 

 

[Howard]

I looked at each of Bill’s points but could not see a match, however as a result of points below, we may need to look again.

1. The spoil from the trenches looks like chalk, some fairly recent others dirty and therefore older.

2. Some of the buildings are damaged therefore at some point the site was in shelling range but the shell holes are mainly old and very small.

2. The trenches are dark indicating that the sun was low in the sky. The tank shadows show the same. The sun was at an azimuth of about 192 degrees; together with the north arrow, that implies the photo was taken in the evening.  The linear feature on the left is light coloured at the north but then dark along A implying it is a ditch . However, at its southern end it appears to be a track that connects to the curved road. On the western side of A are tank tracks implying that the dark section was not usable for vehicles. So what is it? The farm buildings run along it. From the layout it looks like the road at B is the farm access road spurred off the road at C. If so, why does it go dark? That impacts on what type of feature is searched for.

3. Judging from the tracks at D, the site access was to the south west not at C. Those tracks extend north east to a possible second access point.

4. Can a tank specialist say what the small protrusions are on one end of the tank? Are these the arms that supported the trench crossing gear on the Mark 1s (sorry, I know very little about this).

5. Are the tanks British? Is there a chance they are French?

So we are looking for a site in use between 5th Feb and 5th May 1918 in a chalky area not too far from the front that may have been shelled in say 1917 but that required more trenches in early 1918. The feature at A may be a ditch connecting to other dark lines indicating the site is nearer to the Aubers Ridge end of the front.

A final thought, how many tanks did the Germans capture? Is this a German site?

Howard

[johntaylor]

Hi Howard, these are really useful comments/questions. There are some other tank experts on the GWF who would also have useful insights but they may not have spotted this thread - probably because I hijacked yours, so there's no mention of tanks in the subject line. Apologies, but I wonder if it's worth changing the subject line to flag this up?

My view for what it's worth is that these are definitely British tanks rather than French, probably Mark IVs and/or Mark Vs in view of the likely date. The steering mechanism at the rear of the Mark I was abandoned soon after the first actions in 1916. Re your question 4, I think what we can see is the light falling on the different angles of the track. Thus in the group you've picked out, the front of the tank is at bottom left, and at top right we can see the rear section of track section sloping upwards and catching the light less, which makes it look narrower.

Re your final point, the Germans were using Beutepanzer at this stage in the war but I would be surprised to see such a large concentration and formation of them. I'm also tempted to say they would have been better camouflaged!

All the best,

John

 

. 

[Stereoview Paul]

Hi John,

I have modified the title and added a tank tag.

Paul

Edited 11 October , 2022 by Stereoview Paul

[johntaylor]

Thanks Paul - just the job!

John

[Howard]

Whilst looking at McMaster I noticed another similar photograph so I joined them.

On McMaster it says 'Exact location is unknown, but according to annotations on aerial photo No.4 (WW1AIR161, Box 2, Envelope 27) in the same series, it should be somewhere on either WWI map sheet 51b or 57c behind the Arras-Bapaume Railway. Annotations on recto: north arrow pointing just left of straight up. "No.2" printed in white. Annotations on verso: [#102 Hayter Collection] "British Tanks behind our own lines, 1917" written in blue ink. "G. R. EDNEY-HAYTER-13" stamped in purple ink. "P 15" printed in red pencil. '

Using TrenchMapper I moved up and down “behind” the railway line, assuming that to be west, looking for the pattern of linear features but have so far not found it. By a very crude scaling assuming a tank is 8 metres long, I marked a rough scale line- that indicates the size of the area to look for.

The photographs are undated. There are quite a few communication trenches but not front line visible, few recent shell  holes are evident and the fields are still visible. Lots of parts sheets 51b or 57c saw a great deal of action so this is either early in the history of tanks or perhaps further behind the lines. 51b or 57c is only an assumption based on McMaster’s report.

Others may like to try TrenchMapper to see if that pattern of linear features pops out.

Howard

 

Edited 7 November , 2022 by Howard

[johntaylor]

Hi Howard,

I've just caught up with your discovery - amazing that you've managed to put the two photos together in this way, which I suppose doubles the chance of finding the location, though it's still a needle in a haystack.

I'm intrigued by the reference to information from McMaster, as I've used their website for trench maps but wasn't aware of the air photos. Unfortunately the navigation links on the website appear to be broken, and I'd be interested to know how/where you found the photos on there.

All the best, John

 

 

[Howard]

10 hours ago, johntaylor said:

Hi Howard,

I've just caught up with your discovery - amazing that you've managed to put the two photos together in this way, which I suppose doubles the chance of finding the location, though it's still a needle in a haystack.

I'm intrigued by the reference to information from McMaster, as I've used their website for trench maps but wasn't aware of the air photos. Unfortunately the navigation links on the website appear to be broken, and I'd be interested to know how/where you found the photos on there.

All the best, John

 

 

Hello John

I had missed the McMaster aerial photos as well, I was alerted to them from a different GWF post.

This is page 1 of 29.

There are quite a lot but some lack location detail and will be hard to georeference. I am in the process of downloading and listing them so in due course as many as possible will appear on TrenchMapper.

I made an outline of the linear features of the joined photos on a transparent background as close to scale as I could and dragged that around various 1:20,000 maps. Nothing yet but I am optimistic that it can be found.  Your original appears in Peter Chasseaud's book Mapping the First World War on page 244, the list of maps at the back gives an IWM negative number as Q 17757/12702 and S 639. An IWM sleuth may be able to get more information but sadly, thier website gives nothing away.

Howard

[johntaylor]

Hi Howard, that's an amazing collection - thanks for pointing it out, and it makes you think what would be possible if the IWM digitised their collection of aerial photos in the same way.

Re the Peter Chasseaud book, that's where I saw the photo which is why I dropped it into the conversation. I'm afraid it's rather derailed the discussion, but in a very interesting direction!

All the best, John