Pte John Heatley SN6582 Queens Own Cameron Highlanders

[DavidB]

Hi, I am trying to find out where my great uncle would have been when he was killed in action.

I know that he is commemorated on the Menin Gate in Ypres and died on the 11th of November 1914. I think that he was in the 1st Battalion, B company.

Could anyone help me find out where his company would have been in the week leading up to the 11th?

Many thanks,

David

 

[Coldstreamer]

Hello

the war diary at the national archives should tell you where the battalion was but unlikely by company 

its free at the moment to down load 

Edited 5 October , 2022 by Coldstreamer

[Coldstreamer]

He was also recorded as dying on the 11th of November 1914 on or since presumed 

[PRC]

Hi @DavidB and welcome to the forum.

The Commonwealth War Graves Commission webpafe for John shows he was serving with the 1st Battalion when he died on the 11th November 1914. He had no known grave and is remembered on the Ypres (Menin Gate). Memorial. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/1613611/john-heatley/

As Coldstreamer says, War Diaries for units serving in France & Flanders can currently be downloaded for free from the UK National Archive. You do need to sign in with your account, but if you don't have one even that can be set up as part of placing your first order. Just click on "sign in" and follow the instructions - no financial details are requested. The relevant page in the National Archive for the 1st Battalion War Diary covering August to December 1914 can be found here https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14052696

Very unlikely to mention him by name but will give you some idea of where they were and what they were up to.

Cheers,
Peter

[DavidB]

Thanks very much for this.

[Matlock1418]

37 minutes ago, DavidB said:

my great uncle

Welcome to GWF = A great friendly place to aid your research.

John HEATLEY, 6582, Cameron Highlanders

Just in case you are interested [more widely] pension cards at WFA/Fold2 have his dependant as:

Mrs Mary K HEATLEY (Mother) with addresses of 7 Meadow Bank Place, Edinburgh and 304 Washington Avenue, Victoria, Vancouver Island, Canada

M

[DavidB]

That's great and makes sense - the Canada move it new to me. I can't find out when John enlisted - any idea? He seems to have moved from Edinburgh in Aug1914, sent a letter home in September 1914 (post marked Seine et Marne) and died in November. The training was either VERY short, or he was a regular - I can't tell.

Thanks again.

[PRC]

Our parent site, The Long, Long Trail, records the following for 1st Battalion in the opening months of the war.

August 1914 : in Edinburgh.
14 August 1914 : landed at Le Havre as Army Troops.
5 September 1914 : joined 1st Brigade in 1st Division.
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/queens-own-cameron-highlanders/

The Medal Index Card for John, (literally that, an index card raised by the clerks at the records office in 1918/1919 to enable them to keep track of the documentation and correspondence relating to the award of medals), shows John first landed in France on the 14th August 1914 - so he deployed overseas with his unit.

The Long, Long Trail page for the 1st Division show them as involved in the First Battle of Ypres at the time of Johns' death.

The FindMyPast website shows that the British Red Cross received two enquiries about him, while the International Committee of the Red Cross, (ICRC), also received one. I don't subscribe so can't check out the details there, but the ICRC does run a free to access website. They had two private enquiries, both shown on the same card. One was from a Miss Charlotte Heatley, of 7, Meadowbank, Edinburgh, and the other was from a Mrs. M? Burns, 70 Elm Row, Edinburgh. The original correspondence has long since been destroyed, but they stated he was missing since the start of November and serving with B Company, 1st Battalion. They also refer to him as John K. Heatley. There is no note of how the ICRC responded but I suspect sadly it was along the lines of so many respones to such enquiries  - "negatif envoye" meaning nothing had been heard from the German authorities and all their enquiries had drawn a blank. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1942641/3/2/

Cheers,
Peter

 

[Tawhiri]

3 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Mrs Mary K HEATLEY (Mother) with addresses of 7 Meadow Bank Place, Edinburgh and 304 Washington Avenue, Victoria, Vancouver Island, Canada

British Columbia death registrations on FamilySearch have the death of a widowed Mary Kay Heatley on 1 May 1929 in Saanich, British Columbia. She was born on 3 April 1855, parents John Kay and Janet McNaughton. 

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FLGD-DRC

She is buried in the Ross Bay Cemetery, Victoria, British Columbia. The suburb of Saanich is just to the north of downtown Victoria, and the address given on the pension index card is consistent with this location.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/121305546/mary-kay-heatley

Edited 5 October , 2022 by Tawhiri

[PRC]

3 minutes ago, DavidB said:

I can't find out when John enlisted - any idea?

Johns' paperwork seems to have been among the majority of other ranks service records that went up in flames in WW2 when German bombs hit the London warehouse where they were being stored.

To have gone out so early he would have been a pre-war Regular. Paul Nixon's Army Service number website shows that the Regular Army Battalions of the Queens Own Cameron Highlanders would have issued regimental service number 6582 at some point between the 6th January 1903 (6560) and the 24th February 1904 (6858). https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2012/12/queens-own-cameron-highlanders.html

The standard short enlistment was 12 years, split between a period in the colours, (i.e. in uniform, in barracks, subject to military discipline 24/7, receiving full bed, board and pay) and a period in the reserves, (i.e back in civvy street, subject to military discipline only when attending refresher training, receiving half pay but liable for immediate recall in the event of a national emergency such as war). The most common splits were 3 and 9, 7 and 5 and 9 and 3. Once the initial training period was over, the soldier could ask to spend more time in the colours and less in the reserves

A long service enlistment to qualify for a pension was 21 years, but that was all spent in the colours. His status on the relevant 1911 Census will give you some idea of whether he signed up for 3 or 7 years in the colours, (he'd be back in civvy street) or 9 \ long service, (he'd still be in the army).

Soldiers Died in the Great War, a multi-volume HMSO publication from the 1920's tells us he enlisted in Edinburgh.

Most of John's contemporaries would have gone on to serve in the Great War - a 12 year enlistment in 1903/04 would have still left them liable to serve until 1915/16. However a few would have been discharged earlier in their military career. The records of those men whose service ended prior to August 1914 were stored separately, and so weren't amongst those that went up in flames. They included:-

6572 Alexander Boyle attested at Glasgow on the 5th January 1903, enlisting for 12 years split 3 years in the Colours and 9 in the Reserves. He reached the regiment depot at Inverness on the 10th January 1903. He was discharged in April 1903 as not likely to become an efficient soldier.

6587 James Waters attested at Edinburgh on the 19th January 1903, enlisting for 12 years split 3 years in the Colours and 9 in the Reserves. He reached the regiment depot at Inverness on the 20th January 1903. He purchased his discharge a few weeks later.

6590 James Shields attested at Glencorse on the 19th January 1903, enlisting for 12 years split 3 years in the Colours and 9 in the Reserves. He reached the regiment depot at Inverness on the 21st January 1903. He was discharged in February 1903 -not sure about the Kings Regulation quoted.

If you have access to Ancestry \ Fold 3 \ FindMyPast there may also be surviving service records for some of those that went on to serve in the Great War.

Hope that helps,
Peter

[Tom Lang]

The pages of the WD are hand-written and are readable:

Tom.

[Tawhiri]

3 hours ago, PRC said:

They also refer to him as John K. Heatley.

From ScotlandsPeople the birth of a John Kay Heatley was registered in 1885 in Sprouston, Roxburgh.

HEATLEY     JOHN KAY     M     1885     807/ 3     Sprouston

This possibly ties in with a 26 year old John Heatley living in Kelvin, Larnark in the 1911 Scotland census, there are only four John Heatley's recorded in the entire census and this is the only one who's age would fit with being a soldier in 1914 by a long shot.

HEATLEY     JOHN     1911     M     26     644/13 12/ 2     Kelvin     Lanark

Possibly worth a look to see what his occupation was at the time.

[PRC]

@DavidB

Conan Doyle can be a bit jingoistic and enthralled by the whole thing and he doesn't mention the Cameron Highlanders specifically in his narrative of the action on the 11th November 1914, (from Volume 1 of his The Campaign in France & Flanders series), but it may give a bit of a flavour of what was going on.

The 9th and the 10th were uneventful, and the tired troops rested on their arms, though never free for an hour from the endless pelting of shells. To the north and east the Eagles were known to be gathering. There were the Emperor, the Emperor's Guard, and a great fresh battle of the Germans ready for one grand final dash for Calais, with every rifle in the firing line and every cannon to support it. Grave messages came from headquarters, warning words were passed to anxious brigadiers, who took counsel with their colonels as to fire-fields and supports. Batteries were redistributed, depleted limbers refilled, and observation posts pushed to the front, while the untiring sappers gave the last touches to traverse and to trench. All was ready for the fray. So close were the lines that at many points the conversations of the enemy could be heard.

The Germans had already concentrated a large number of troops against this part of the British line, and they were now secretly reinforced by a division of the Prussian Guard. Documents found afterwards upon the dead show that the Guard had had special orders from the Emperor to break the line at all costs. The brigades which attacked were made up of the 1st and 2nd Foot Guards, the Kaiser Franz Grenadiers No. 2, the Königin Augusta Grenadiers No. 4, and the battalion of Garde Jäger—13,000 men in all. It was to be victory or death with the corps d'élite of the German army, but it was no less victory or death with the men who opposed them. After an artillery preparation of appalling intensity for three hours along the line of both the First and Second Divisions, the infantry advance began about 9:30 on the morning of November 11 amid a storm of wind and rain. They are gregarious fighters, the Germans, finding comfort and strength in the rush of serried ranks. Even now the advance was made in a close formation, but it was carried out with magnificent dash, amazing valour, and a pedantic precision which caused, for example, the leading officers to hold their swords at the carry. The Prussian Guardsmen seemed to have lost nothing, and also to have learned nothing, since their famous predecessors lay dead in their ranks before St. Privat, forty-four years before. The attack was directed against the front of the two divisions of the First British Army Corps, but especially on the 1st Brigade, so that Guardsman faced Guardsman, as at Fontenoy. There were none of the chivalrous greetings of 1745, however, and a stern hatred hardened the hearts of either side. The German Guard charged on the north of the Menin road, while a second advance by troops of the line was made upon the south, which withered away before the British fire. Nothing could stop the Guards, however. With trenches blazing and crackling upon their flank, for the advance was somewhat diagonal, they poured over the British position and penetrated it at three different points where the heavy shells had overwhelmed the trenches and buried the occupants, who, in some cases, were bayoneted as they struggled out from under the earth. It was a terrific moment. The yells of the stormers and the shrill whistles of their officers rose above the crash of the musketry-fire and roar of the guns. The British fought in their customary earnest silence, save for the short, sharp directions of their leaders. "They did not seem angry—only business-like," said a hostile observer. The troops to the immediate north of the Menin road, who had been shelled out of their trenches by the bombardment, were forced back and brushed aside into the woods to the north, while the Germans poured through the gap. The 4th Royal Fusiliers of the 9th Brigade, upon the right of the point where the enemy had penetrated, were enfiladed and lost their gallant colonel, MacMahon, a soldier who had done great service from the day of Mons, and had just been appointed to a brigade. The regiment, which has worked as hard and endured as great losses as any in the campaign, was reduced to 2 officers and 100 men.

The German Guard poured on into the woods which lay in the immediate rear of the British position, but their formation was broken and the individualism of the Briton began to tell. Next to MacMahon' s regiment lay the 1st Scots Fusiliers, sister battalion to that which had been destroyed upon October 31. With fierce joy they poured volleys into the flank of the Guard as the grey figures rushed past them into the woods. Four hundred dead Germans were afterwards picked out from the underwood at this point. The Scots Fusiliers were also hard hit by the German fire.

At this period the Germans who had come through the line had skirted the south of a large wood of half-grown trees, called the Polygon Wood, and had advanced into the farther one, named Nonnebusch. At this point they were close to the British artillery, which they threatened to overwhelm. The 41st Brigade R.F.A., and especially the 16th Field Battery, were in the immediate line of their advance, and the gunners looking up saw the grey uniforms advancing amid the trees. Colonel Lushington, who commanded the artillery brigade, hurriedly formed up a firing line under his adjutant, composed partly of his own spare gunners and partly of a number of Engineers, reinforced by cooks, officers' servants, and other odd hands who are to be found in the rear of the army, but seldom expect to find themselves in the van of the fight. It was a somewhat grotesque array, but it filled the gap and brought the advance to a halt, though the leading Germans were picked up afterwards within seventy yards of the guns. Whilst the position was critical at this point of the front, it was no less so upon the extreme right, where the French detachment, who still formed a Link between the canal on the south and the British right flank, were shelled out of their trenches and driven back. Lord Cavan's 4th Brigade, their nearest neighbours, were too hard pressed to be able to help them. To the north of the Menin road a number of British units were intact, and these held up the German flood in that region. There are two considerable woods—the Polygon to the north and the Nonnebusch to the south-west of the Polygon—the edges of which have defined the British position, while their depths have harboured their artillery. Now the 1st King's Liverpool Regiment held firm to the south of the Polygon Wood, while north of them were the 2nd Highland Light Infantry, with a field company of Engineers. Farther to the south-west were the 1st Connaught Rangers, while on the other side of the Nonnebusch road was the 7th Cavalry Brigade. In the afternoon of this day the enemy, skirting the south of the Polygon Wood, had actually entered the Nonnebusch Wood, in which it faced the artillery as already described. In the Polygon Wood, when they penetrated the trenches of the 1st Brigade, they had the Bang's Liverpool Regiment on their right, which refused to move, so that for a long time the Prussian Guard and the King's lay side by side with a traverse between them. "Our right is supported by the Prussian Guard," said the humorous adjutant of the famous Lancashire regiment. While the main body of the Guard passed on, some remained all day in this trench.

The German Guardsmen had been prevented from submerging the 41st Brigade of Artillery, and also the 35th Heavy Battery, by the resistance of an improvised firing line. But a more substantial defence was at hand. The 2nd Oxford and Bucks Light Infantry, which had been in divisional reserve near Ypres, had been brought forward and found itself at Westhoek, near the threatened guns. This regiment is the old 52nd, of the Peninsular Light Division, a famous corps which threw itself upon the flank of Napoleon's Guard at Waterloo and broke it in the crisis of the battle. Once again within a century an Imperial Guard was to recoil before its disciplined rush. Under Colonel Davies the regiment swept through the wood from north-west to south-east, driving the Germans, who had already been badly shaken by the artillery fire, in a headlong rout. Many threw down their arms. The loss to the Oxfords was surprisingly small, well under fifty in all. As they emerged from the wood they were joined by some of the 1st Northamptons from the 2nd Brigade upon the right, while on the left there was a rush of Connaughts and Highland Light Infantry from their own (Haking's) brigade and of Engineers of the 25th Field Company, who showed extraordinary initiative and gallantry, pushing on rapidly, and losing all their officers save one and a number of their men without flinching for an instant. A party of the Gloucesters, too, charged with the Northamptons upon the right, for by this time units were badly mixed up, as will always happen in woodland fighting. "It was all a confused nightmare," said one who tried to control it. The line of infantry dashed forward, a company of the Oxfords under Captain H. M. Dillon in the lead, and the khaki wave broke over a line of trenches which the Germans had taken, submerging all the occupants. There was another line in front, but as the victorious infantry pushed forward to this it was struck in the flank by a fire from French batteries, which had been unable to believe that so much progress could have been made in so short a time.

It was now nearly dark, and the troops were in the last stage of exhaustion. Of the 1st Brigade something less than 400 with 4 officers could be collected. It was impossible to do more than hold the line as it then existed. Two brave attempts were made in the darkness to win back the original front trenches, but it could not be done, for there were no men to do it. Save for one small comer of the Polygon Wood, the Germans had been completely cleared out from the main position. At twelve and at four, during the night, the British made a forward movement to regain the advanced trenches, but in each case the advance could make no progress. At the very beginning of the second attempt General FitzClarence, commanding the 1st Brigade, was killed, and the movement fizzled out. Besides General FitzClarence, the Army sustained a severe loss in General Shaw of the 9th Brigade, who was struck by a shell splinter, though happily the wound was not mortal. The German losses were exceedingly severe: 700 of their dead were picked up within a single section of the British line, but the main loss was probably sustained in the advance before they reached the trenches. Killed, wounded, and prisoners, their casualties cannot have been less than 10,000 men.*

[ * The German returns for the Guard alone at this battle are reported at 1170 dead, 3991 wounded, 1719 missing. ]

It was a fine attack, bravely delivered by fresh troops against weary men, but it showed the German leaders once for all that it was impossible to force a passage through the lines. The Emperor's Guard, driven on by the Emperor's own personal impetus, had recoiled broken, even as the Guard of a greater Emperor had done a century before from the indomitable resistance of the British infantry. The constant fighting had reduced British brigades to the strength of battalions, battalions to companies, and companies to weak platoons, but the position was still held. They had, it is true, lost about five hundred yards of ground in the battle, but a shorter line was at once dug, organised, and manned. The barrier to Ypres was as strong as ever. http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks12/1202551h.html

Cheers,
Peter

[DavidB]

I cannot thank all of you enough. I understand what is realistic to be expected in my search, but you have all given me good evidence of the area he died. Also, the links to named family members agree with my records and family tree - but the links into Canada are new for me.

Thanks again everyone.

[Tawhiri]

The Charlotte Heatley mentioned in the ICRC inquiry noted by Peter appears to be the youngest sister of John Heatley based on what I can see in the 1911 Scotland census. I suspect she immigrated to Canada at the same time as her mother did, as her death at the age of 70 was registered on 18 December 1965 in Victoria, British Columbia.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FLYY-DLG

She appears to have never married as she is described as single on her death registration, and is buried in the same cemetery as her mother, in a plot next to her mother's grave.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/121305543/charlotte-heatley

Charlotte looks to have arrived in Canada on 12 June 1921, with her final destination being 3047 Washington Avenue, Victoria, British Columbia, which was apparently the address that brother T Heatley was living at according to her immigration record. Her reason for travelling to Canada was stated to be to assist her sister on the farm, so you may well have more Heatley's to discover in Canada.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:684X-DPWC

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2HGJ-T3N

Also listed on the same passenger list is mother Mary, aged 64, and brother William, aged 35.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:684L-D3DD

Brother William Kay Heatley has two immigration records, one from 1921, and a second from 1924 returning to Canada, presumably from a trip home to Scotland.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:684X-ZDM8

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:684X-ZDMZ

The brother they are travelling to join is apparently Thomas Heatley, who died on 22 January 1938. His death notice in the Victoria Times mentions brother William who was then living in Saskatchewan, and three sisters, two still living in Scotland, and the aforementioned Charlotte living in Victoria. It also mentions that he'd been in Canada for 26 years, so you'd be looking for his immigration in 1912 or thereabouts.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QLBL-F15S

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/229411040/thomas-heatley

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FL2V-D9R

It also looks as though his first wife died and he remarried shortly before his own death. At the time he was apparently the Chief of Police in Victoria.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKNL-VPKZ

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QLBL-4624

His first wife's death notice from 1936.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QLBL-Q317

Happy hunting.

Edited 6 October , 2022 by Tawhiri

[DavidB]

Thanks very much - again!