Can anyone please help id this uniform

[hmsk212]

Hi

Can anyone please help id this uniform? It has been suggested to me that it is the Army Veterinary Corps but I don't think that that is the correct id.

Sorry for the quality of the picture but that is the best that is available to me.

Steve

Edited 25 September , 2022 by hmsk212

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, hmsk212 said:

Hi

Can anyone please help id this uniform? It has been suggested to me that it is the Army Veterinary Corps but I don't think that that is the correct id.

Sorry for the quality of the picture but that is the best that is available to me.

Steve

It is definitely not Army Veterinary Corps, nor is it a British ‘Regular’ Army uniform.  The cocked (bicorne) hat is a familiar part of more senior ranks, or some of the departmental (officer only) corps, but then variations on that theme were common across Europe.  The other recognisably British feature is the pouch belt and chains that was favoured by light cavalry and rifles regiments.  If it definitely is a British uniform then the only category that might at a stretch be feasible is a ‘Yeomanry’ (auxiliary citizen cavalry) regiment, whose uniforms changed sometimes quite dramatically between 1880 and 1900, and then again after the 2nd Boer War as the use of khaki was extended.

Other possibilities that mustn’t be completely ruled out are a theatrical outfit (although it is a rather comprehensive effort for that), or a quasi religious Christian organisation of the kind that sometimes wore uniform during that era.  However, the long sword slings do suggest a genuine mounted role.

Are you able to give any geographical origin (County) that might narrow down the examination of Yeomanry uniform?

NB.  It shouldn’t at this stage be ruled out that it might be a uniform from overseas.  There are some features reminiscent of Russian and German uniform.  The tunic is rather long and the collar spread unusual.

Edited 25 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[hmsk212]

Hi

 

Many thanks for your reply, as far as I know this family were from the Wookey area of Somerset.

 

Steve

[FROGSMILE]

43 minutes ago, hmsk212 said:

Hi

 

Many thanks for your reply, as far as I know this family were from the Wookey area of Somerset.

 

Steve

Thank you, that has at least enabled me to examine the potential Somerset connection.  The uniform does not match that of either, the North Somerset Yeomanry (dressed as Dragoons from 1880), or the West Somerset Yeomanry (dressed as Hussars in 1880).  I think that we can now safely rule out the Yeomanry, as no regiment adopted that rather unusual (for Britain at that time) longer length tunic, with 3-rows of buttons and what appears to be (but isn’t clear) frogging.

The British-Indian Army also does not fit with the uniform shown, so the options for a British associated solution are narrowing.  One last consideration before I run out of ideas is that of a Colonial uniform from the period of Queen Victoria’s diamond jubilee of 22nd June 1897, which would be underpinned by the fact that he appears to be wearing Levee Dress (extra gold laced uniform features and accoutrements).  A great variety of uniforms, some quite unusual, were worn by units from Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, India and various other overseas territories and dependencies.

Many of the officers from the visiting contingents may have stayed with local family members, and it was a time when photography was becoming more and more popular and affordable.  I think that is the area on which you should focus and over the next few days I will examine the references that I have, consult with learned colleagues, and report back if I find anything.  I am 100% confident that the uniform is neither regular, nor auxiliary, armed forces from Britain itself.

Edited 25 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[hmsk212]

Many thanks this is much appreciated.

 

Steve

[PRC]

49 minutes ago, hmsk212 said:

as far as I know this family were from the Wookey area of Somerset.

Which family is it?

That angle will surely throw up some possibilities, plus if it is a guest staying with them that might have led to a mention in the local press.

Cheers,
Peter

[aodhdubh]

I believe the feathers on the headdress would indicate a general rank...I think the colour may have been indicative of rank. The Governor of Bermuda has white feathers, as I recollect...as an imperial fortress, the colonial governor, who was also General Officer Commanding the garrison, was normally a Lieutenant-General....civilians appointed in more recent decades have generally continued to wear the same uniform for ceremonial occasions. Websearching it...

 

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30100432

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

The cocked hat with cascading feathers was not just the headdress of general rank officers, but also officers above field rank of the Royal Engineers and Royal Artillery, as well as of departmental corps such as Army Medical Department, Army Veterinary Staff and Army Ordnance Department, plus a few others.  Similar caps, but with upright, or no plumes, were worn by Adjutants, Quartermasters and Regimental Surgeons (Medical Officers)**.

You are quite correct that there was a scheme to indicate rank involving a variety of different feathered arrangements in both, colour and type, but generally involving Swan, Cock and Vulture feathers in white, red and black.  These were laid out in the Dress Regulations for officers of the Army that were issued from time-to-time.  The light cavalry pouch belt with chains and pickers is also key to the identification.

The three rows of buttons with what I assume is frogging (which latter is unclear) plus the longer length tunic (it is not a frock coat) are what makes the uniform unusual.

**the images below show 1st Dragoon Guards Regimental [HQ] Staff - circa 1876.  Left to right: Quartermaster, Veterinary Surgeon, Adjutant, Medical Surgeon, Paymaster.

 

Edited 25 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[aodhdubh]

42 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The cocked hat with cascading feathers was not just the headdress of general rank officers, but also officers above field rank of the Royal Engineers and Royal Artillery, as well as of departmental corps such as Army Medical Department, Army Veterinary Staff and Army Ordnance Department, plus a few others.  Similar caps, but with upright, or no plumes, were worn by Adjutants, Quartermasters and Regimental Surgeons (Medical Officers)**.

Thanks. Just looking at Simkin paintings. Black plumes seems a bit grim for a surgeon, I would have thought.

[hmsk212]

Hi

 

Thanks for all of the replies so far, I have got back in touch with the person who posed the question to me and they have sent me a slightly clearer photograph.

Steve

[FROGSMILE]

57 minutes ago, hmsk212 said:

Hi

 

Thanks for all of the replies so far, I have got back in touch with the person who posed the question to me and they have sent me a slightly clearer photograph.

Steve

That is much, much better!  There is no frogging, but still the relatively unusual three rows of buttons and noticeably long tunic with its odd, spread collar.   The pouch belt (diagonal across the chest) and the waist belt and sword appears to be of British style, as does the cocked hat with its cascading swan feather plume in two colours, white over red.  I am no closer to identification and have never seen any British regular regiment in such an outfit.  More research is needed I’m afraid.  It’s not a Lord Lieutenant’s uniform, nor one of the Diplomatic Staff, or Royal Household Staff (at least I’ve never seen the latter wear one like it).

59 minutes ago, aodhdubh said:

Thanks. Just looking at Simkin paintings. Black plumes seems a bit grim for a surgeon, I would have thought.

It related to their facings, which were and had been for some time, black velvet.  The now famous cherry colour was the facing colour adopted by the RAMC when it was formed from the Army Hospital Corps (who also had black), which the all officer Medical Department Staff subsequently joined.  That left the Indian Medical Service (IMS), which had been directly associated with their British Imperial counterparts, to retain the black velvet.  I suspect that the colour cherry was chosen by someone who agreed with you that black was rather funereal in the Christian tradition.  The IMS, treating Hindus and Mussulmen was less affected.

Edited 25 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE