Minenwerfer-Kompanie Nr. 40

[Dirty Harry]

Hello,

 

I am trying to find a deserter from the 40th TMB who came over on the 23rd April 1916.  First Corps diary doesnt give his name, First Army Diary for April is missing and cant find anything in GHQ.  Without a name i cant lookup ICRC, is ther any other way of finding out who this man was and would any transcripts of his interogation be found anywhere?

 

Secondly, im assuming the 40th TMB was still part of the 40th Division? am i right in that assumption?

 

Thanks,

 

Paul

[AOK4]

Gustav Reißmann it is:

http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/1601757

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/411487/1/2/

Jan

[Dirty Harry]

Brilliant!

 

thanks Jan

[bierast]

On 24/09/2022 at 22:23, Dirty Harry said:

Secondly, im assuming the 40th TMB was still part of the 40th Division? am i right in that assumption?

Yes, Minenwerfer-Kompagnie Nr.40 (believed to have been formed at the end of 1915) was a divisional asset of 40.ID for the duration. Both the company and the division were (of course) Saxon.

[bierast]

The location 'Hulluch - Lens' on the POW documents does not match the location of the division, which was still at Ploegsteert Wood as it had been since First Ypres. However, this scanned photo in my system (saved from eBay I think) offers an explanation. It shows MWK 40 apparently attached to 3. Bayer. Inf. Div. (3rd Bavarian Infantry Division) at the beginning of June 1916; this Bavarian division was indeed on the right front at the time. Especially during 1915 it was commonplace for units of the Saxon XIX. Armeekorps (24. and 40. Inf. Div.) to be taken piecemeal from their famously quiet corps sector for use as reserves and reinforcements elsewhere on the 6. Armee front (which included Lens and Vimy Ridge.). This has to be an example of this phenomenon, albeit a very late one.

[bierast]

This of course means another correction to p.115 of Fighting the Kaiser's War - MWK 40 was evidently not available to support the Kratzbürste raid at Ploegsteert Wood on 13th May 1916...

[Dirty Harry]

5 hours ago, bierast said:

5 hours ago, bierast said:

The location 'Hulluch - Lens' on the POW documents does not match the location of the division, which was still at Ploegsteert Wood as it had been since First Ypres. However, this scanned photo in my system (saved from eBay I think) offers an explanation. It shows MWK 40 apparently attached to 3. Bayer. Inf. Div. (3rd Bavarian Infantry Division) at the beginning of June 1916; this Bavarian division was indeed on the right front at the time. Especially during 1915 it was commonplace for units of the Saxon XIX. Armeekorps (24. and 40. Inf. Div.) to be taken piecemeal from their famously quiet corps sector for use as reserves and reinforcements elsewhere on the 6. Armee front (which included Lens and Vimy Ridge.). This has to be an example of this phenomenon, albeit a very late one.

 

GREAT WORK !  This would mean tht 40 company was brought in as additional tmb to support the attack.  Which sector had they come from ? and any idea when?

[bierast]

2 hours ago, Dirty Harry said:

GREAT WORK !  This would mean tht 40 company was brought in as additional tmb to support the attack.  Which sector had they come from ? and any idea when?

The divisional sector held by 40.ID lay directly opposite Ploegsteert Wood, bounded (since the triangularisation of XIX.AK in spring 1915) by the rivers Lys at the southern end and Douve at the northern end. Unfortunately I have no idea when MWK 40 was detached from 40.ID for this mission, as there is no relevant war diary or other sufficiently detailed source available. All I have in my folder for this unit are the photo I already posted and a Saxon Militär-St.-Heinrichs-Orden citation dated 25/11/1916 for its acting commander Oberleutnant Wilhelm Hübner, who distinguished himself during the division's two brutal tours on the Somme.

For what it's worth, I can at least confirm (on the basis of a very detailed published OOB) that MWK 40 was definitely with its parent division when the entire XIX.AK was sent to the Somme at the end of July 1916.

There is one detail in the POW documents which is worth noting - the second page indicates that the deserter belonged to the mittlere Minenwerfer-Abteilung of MWK 40. At this time a regulation Minenwerfer-Kompagnie consisted of one leichte (light), one mittlere (medium) and one schwere (heavy) Minenwerfer-Abteilung, armed respectively with 12 x 7.58cm, 6 x 17cm and 3 x 25cm weapons.

[Dirty Harry]

On 29/09/2022 at 21:28, bierast said:

The divisional sector held by 40.ID lay directly opposite Ploegsteert Wood, bounded (since the triangularisation of XIX.AK in spring 1915) by the rivers Lys at the southern end and Douve at the northern end. Unfortunately I have no idea when MWK 40 was detached from 40.ID for this mission, as there is no relevant war diary or other sufficiently detailed source available. All I have in my folder for this unit are the photo I already posted and a Saxon Militär-St.-Heinrichs-Orden citation dated 25/11/1916 for its acting commander Oberleutnant Wilhelm Hübner, who distinguished himself during the division's two brutal tours on the Somme.

For what it's worth, I can at least confirm (on the basis of a very detailed published OOB) that MWK 40 was definitely with its parent division when the entire XIX.AK was sent to the Somme at the end of July 1916.

There is one detail in the POW documents which is worth noting - the second page indicates that the deserter belonged to the mittlere Minenwerfer-Abteilung of MWK 40. At this time a regulation Minenwerfer-Kompagnie consisted of one leichte (light), one mittlere (medium) and one schwere (heavy) Minenwerfer-Abteilung, armed respectively with 12 x 7.58cm, 6 x 17cm and 3 x 25cm weapons.

Thanks bierast !

[Dirty Harry]

Do we know what happened to Gustav?

 

and secondly, the whole company may not have been sent? Part could have been sent so keeping some cover for its parent division?

[bierast]

8 minutes ago, Dirty Harry said:

Do we know what happened to Gustav?

Sadly not, beyond the docs already posted in this thread.

Quote

and secondly, the whole company may not have been sent? Part could have been sent so keeping some cover for its parent division?

It's possible - unfortunately there's no way of knowing from the very limited sources available. There may be something relevant in the Bavarian archives, with which I am not personally familiar.

[Dirty Harry]

thanks for trying bierast 

 

Paul

[Dirty Harry]

bierast i came across this intelligence summary for August 1917 which you might find useful in regard to the company

 

 

Edited 24 February , 2023 by Dirty Harry
additional info

[bierast]

On 24/02/2023 at 21:22, Dirty Harry said:

bierast i came across this intelligence summary for August 1917 which you might find useful in regard to the company

Thankyou, nice find! Information is as expected for the 40.ID at the time... this front was absolute murder in August 1917. However the witness here gives the impression that they were thrown straight into the meatgrinder upon arrival, which isn't quite what happened. The division had actually taken over the sector in the period 17th-19th July before the outbreak of the offensive, but it is of course possible that MWK 40 relieved the preceding division's Minenwerfer company a bit later and didn't get to experience the 'calm before the storm'.

Edited 28 February , 2023 by bierast