Inter tank communications in 1916

[delta]

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The instruction issued for the employment of tanks, by HQ Fourth Army on 11 Sep 1916 state that the following signals will be used from tanks to infantry and aircraft

Flag signals:  Red flag – out of operation; Green flag – am on objective. Other flags are inter tank signals.

Lamp signal:  series of Ts – out of action; series of Hs - am on objective.

I have searched for details of the inter tank flags signals for several years to no avail.  Does anyone know of a source document which contains them

Many thanks as ever.

 

 

[KizmeRD]

‘Instructions for the employment of tanks’ were drafted and promulgated in the wake of the 4th Army Conference held on 10th September 1916. This included details for tank to infantry communication using red and green flags, and flashing signal lamp (in the manner you describe).

Later tank signalling experiments involved the display of a combination of three coloured discs (white, red, green).

Needless to say, communications with and between tanks remained somewhat problematic thought the entire war.

MB

Ref. Major-General A.A. Montgomery, “Instructions for the Employment of ‘Tanks,’” dated 11 September 1916, in Pidgeon, The Tanks at Flers, p.56.

Montgomery was General Rawlinson's Chief of Staff, based at Querrieux Chateau, near Amiens.

Edited 16 September , 2022 by KizmeRD
Ref. added.

[MBrockway]

This booklet dates from 1917, so probably not applicable for Flers 1916, but I post anyway just in case. 

It describes the system using white, red and green discs KizmeRD mentions above.  Nothing on flags - I notice it's the "2nd EDITION", perhaps the flag-based system is in "1st EDITION"

Found in the 123 Inf Bde HQ war diary (41st Divn) in material mostly from May 1917 (we corresponded off the board about it back in Nov 2017!)

 

 

Mark

 

Edited 16 September , 2022 by MBrockway
Emphasis that source covers discs not flags increased.

[MBrockway]

8 hours ago, delta said:

The instruction issued for the employment of tanks, by HQ Fourth Army on 11 Sep 1916 state that the following signals will be used from tanks to infantry and aircraft

Flag signals:  Red flag – out of operation; Green flag – am on objective. Other flags are inter tank signals.

Lamp signal:  series of Ts – out of action; series of Hs - am on objective.

Stephen - (unsurprisingly) exactly the same text is repeated in 41st Divn Operational Order No 42 13 Sep 1916.

 

Edited 16 September , 2022 by MBrockway

[KizmeRD]

Perhaps you might be able to locate a full copy of Montgomery’s 11th September 1916 ‘Instructions for the employment of tanks’ within the Montgomery-Messingberd Papers held in the Liddell Hart Centre for Military Archives at King’s College London. 

MB

PS Fuller also states in his book (Tanks in the Great War) that the use made of the signals suggested in the 11th September memo were not recorded. And seeing as tanks were attracting a significant amount of unwelcome enemy attention anyway, I can well imagine that opening up a hatch in order to wave signal flags around wasn’t really a sane proposition on the battlefield (in any case tank crews probably had more necessary duties to fulfil during an actual engagement).

Edited 17 September , 2022 by KizmeRD

[delta]

Mark

Thanks for sharing the 1917 disc details. The NZ Division Orders have also an exact copy of Fourth Army's instructions. 

MB. 

I will check the original by Montgomery but I expect that the details of the inter-tank communications would not have been sent to the Army HQ. 

The only picture of a tank showing a flag is in the NZ National Army Museum Collection (below).  The tank is Daredevil but the date taken is unknown

 

Edited 17 September , 2022 by delta

[MBrockway]

9 hours ago, delta said:

Mark

Thanks for sharing the 1917 disc details. The NZ Division Orders have also an exact copy of Fourth Army's instructions.

As does 14th (Light) Division Operation Order No. 85, Appendix B, though with this extra paragraph, which will amuse you ...

Quote

 

15.     If infantry wish to speak to tanks the best way of attracting attention is to knock loudly on doors on the rear side of the sponsons.

 

 

I've now checked the diaries for Fourth Army, XV Corps, 14th and 41st Divs - found nothing other than the text you already have 

Also checked Montgomery-Massingberd's book on the last hundred days - I know that's even later, but he does discuss the merits of pre-War textbooks, so I thought there was chance tank signal issues might also get a mention.  Sadly nothing found there either.

 

Mark

 

[delta]

Mark

 

Many thanx

love the 14th Div addition