British Fuze Tin ID?

[4thGordons]

Can anyone ID this fuze tin and suggest the period?

I assume from label it is British.

It belongs to @new3.2 (Ken) who asked me to post these pics - he can add additional details. There is some stamping on the interior leather but I was unable to make it out in person and the photos don't help much.

 

Edited 10 September , 2022 by 4thGordons
spelling fuse to fuze

[Chasemuseum]

I do not have references to hands but would expect late Victorian.  RL is a reference to the manufacturer "Royal Laboratories".

Cheers

Ross

[Gunner Bailey]

7 hours ago, Chasemuseum said:

I do not have references to hands but would expect late Victorian.  RL is a reference to the manufacturer "Royal Laboratories".

Cheers

Ross

The Royal Laboratories were not laboratories as we think of them today, with white coated scientists and test tubes etc. At one stage before WW1 they had 1000 lathes and huge steam hammers. They were a manufacturing facility foremost with engineers and scientists working on site. John Pettman, inventor of the Pettman percussion fuze was actually a foreman in the Laboratories. His original status was as a blacksmith but he worked his way up the ladder until his death at the age of 50.

[new3.2]

Thank you Chris for posting the pictures for me.  I assumed it was about circa 1880, and also thought there would be replies from Chasemuseum & Gunner Bailey and I thank you both.  By the indentations I am thinking that the fuses would be to large for a field caliber gun.

new3.2

[Chasemuseum]

Many of the field artillery fuses of the 1880s were very big for what they were. Even by the 2nd Boer War, the rather knobby T&P fuses for shrapnel shells were smaller but still large compared to what we think of as a T&P fuze.  I suspect that these fuzes may have been for one of the larger models of field guns of about 1880 such as the 12 pdr 8cwt Armstrong RBL.  see photo below.

It will take proper research to correctly identify the gun that used the specific fuze in this case. Unfortunately most of my references are in storage at present so I cannot help.

Good luck

C

Many of the field artillery fuses of the 1880s were very big for what they were. Even by the 2nd Boer War, the rather knobby T&P fuses for shrapnel shells were smaller but still large compared to what we think of as a T&P fuze.  I suspect that these fuzes may have been for one of the larger models of field guns of about 1880 such as the 12 pdr 8cwt Armstrong RBL.  see photo below.

It will take proper research to correctly identify the gun that used the specific fuze in this case. Unfortunately most of my references are in storage at present so I cannot help.

Good luck

Cheers

Ross

https://artilleryhistory.org/moments_in_history/colonial_artillery/restoration_of_the_werribee_gun.html

 

 

 

[Gunner Bailey]

7 hours ago, new3.2 said:

 By the indentations I am thinking that the fuses would be to large for a field caliber gun.

new3.2

The RL was just one part of the Royal Arsenal. The RL was mainly concerned with the manufacture of ammunition (SAA), shells and fuzes, but also made rockets and flares. There were separate factories devoted to making large guns, field guns, torpedoes, chemicals, gun carriages, and ordnance stores. A section of the canal alongside the Arsenal was used to test torpedoes! Metal work dominates, and there were rolling mills, forges, boring mills and of course the giant 40 ton steam hammer. There was also the first Pattern Room.

The site was huge and had ranges for small arms and cannon. An amazing place with an amazing history.

Edited 12 September , 2022 by Gunner Bailey

[new3.2]

Thanks for that description Gunner.

new3.2

[new3.2]

I just discovered the story of the restoration of the Werribee gun.  All those involved deserve the thanks of the antique cannon community.  I know a little about the process, having had a carriage built for my 1861 3" Ordnance Rifle.  We were lucky enough to find many of the original carriage irons.  Thanks again for posting that adventure.

new3.2

[new3.2]

The quest goes on.  Today I was gifted: "Ordnance and Armor" 1865 New York & London; which has nothing about fuzes. And also "British Smoothbore Artillery: A Technological Study" by David McConnell, published by Parks Canada in 1988.  It has 24 pages about fuzes, but no cases.

new3.2

[Chasemuseum]

1 minute ago, new3.2 said:

It has 24 pages about fuzes, but no cases.

But does it make reference to a T&P fuze  No6   ?

 

 

[new3.2]

I will have to check back to that book tomorrow.

new3.2

[Chasemuseum]

Only having limited access to references.

The Royal Artillery began the transition from wood to metallic fuzes in about 1880, the transition taking a full twenty years.

The early fuzes were percussion, referred to at the time as "Direct Action". Time delay fuzes for shrapnel shells and star shells came latter. The "Time & Percussion" fuzes appear to have started to be introduced about 1890. As some of them were used in rather obscure applications, it is very difficult to say when they were officially declared obsolete. It is likely that many of these early metallic fuzes remained in inventory for older style artillery through WW1 and were only formally declared obsolete after the end of the war when a lot of very aged artillery was finally scrapped, as there were sufficient surplus stocks of more modern guns to permit replacements.

These are some of the early metallic fuzes, unfortunately I do not have No 6 T&P.

Cheers

Ross 

No 1, No 2 & No 3

 

Pettman series

 

 

No 7, No 8 & No 10

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chasemuseum]

The Pettman series of fuzes are Naval only and have their origins in the 1860s. A detonating (ribbed) ball was held in place by a lead cup, on firing the cup collapsed freeing the ball which was coated in mercury fulminate. On impact the ball crushed the fulminate initiating the main charge. The fuse worked well against hard targets such as stone, masonry and armour but performed poorly against earthworks.

[Gunner Bailey]

7 hours ago, Chasemuseum said:

But does it make reference to a T&P fuze  No6   ?

 

 

I think it's six fuses not No.6

[Gunner Bailey]

1 hour ago, Chasemuseum said:

The Pettman series of fuzes are Naval only and have their origins in the 1860s. A detonating (ribbed) ball was held in place by a lead cup, on firing the cup collapsed freeing the ball which was coated in mercury fulminate. On impact the ball crushed the fulminate initiating the main charge. The fuse worked well against hard targets such as stone, masonry and armour but performed poorly against earthworks.

The Navy started the requirement with a request for a fuse that would work against wooden and iron clad ships. However, the Pettman fuze initially came in two versions, one for the army Fuze, Percussion, Pettman, L.S (Land Service) appeared in 1861 and the Fuze, Percussion, Pettman, GS, Mk II which the Navy used. Later versions followed. These were the first metal fuzes used in service, and the ongoing replacement of wooden fuses began then.

Edited 16 September , 2022 by Gunner Bailey

[awjdthumper]

On 12/09/2022 at 01:31, new3.2 said:

Thank you Chris for posting the pictures for me.  I assumed it was about circa 1880, and also thought there would be replies from Chasemuseum & Gunner Bailey and I thank you both.  By the indentations I am thinking that the fuses would be to large for a field caliber gun.

new3.2

I assume the fuses would have been housed in fuse tins and so any indentations on the leather would have come from the tins. It would be interesting to know what diameter and length the fuse tins would have been from the size of the leather pockets? I assume the fuses themselves would have been a bit smaller than the tins to allow for the packing that held them firmly in place in the tins?

[new3.2]

awjd- Good idea.  The distance across the milled out wooden holders is: 1 27/32sds.".  The depth of the same wood is: 22/32sds".  The length of the top leather holders is: 1 & 29/32sds".  The width of the inside of the metal box is: 3 & 13/32sds."  The length of the inside of the box is" 12 & 1/2in.   I have a fairly complete collection of US Civil War (1861-1865) field & siege fuzes, and none of them to be as wide, as it seems to me would be the diameter of fuzes for this case.  Remember you are dealing with 80 year old eyes.

[awjdthumper]

The dimensions I was really after were: the length of each milled out wooden channel which seem to have leather walls at either end; and the distance between the bottom of each milled wooden channel and the highest part of the leather channels above them with the lid closed. These two dimensions will determine the length and diameter of the fuse tin.  I am expecting the diameter of the fuse tin to be slightly greater than the 1 27/32" you measured. 

[new3.2]

awjd- The leather covering only covers part of the top milled out piece.  There is no indication the bottum wood piece ever had applied leather installed.  The bottom wood bit I call arsenal quality workmanship.  The width of the wood is apx. 3 & 1/4".  It is hard to get a more exact measurment, as the sides of the box were lined with leather, which has worked partialry loose.  I am not smart enough to know how to measure the fuze diameter with the lid closed.  The height of the top of the radis of the top leather is 5/8"

new3.2  

[awjdthumper]

It sounds as though the diameter is probably about 2"?

[new3.2]

I would think.  will have to find something about that dia. and see what happens.

new3.2

 

[new3.2]

Chase museum- The 1988 "British Smooth-Bore Artillery..." by David McConnell has four pages on Pettman's fuzes.  I will list the headings on what McConnell says:  "Pettman's Fuzes", 

"Pettman's Land Service Percussion Fuze":  "Pettman's Sea Service Percussion Fuze",  "Pettman's General Service Percussion Fuze".  There is also a group photo entitled: Fuze Percussion Pettman General Service.  Royal Art. Inst. Woolwich RL, Plate 45, July 1866.  There are fuzes & water caps etc. but the quality of the photo does not allow any of the dimensions to be legible. 

new3.2 (Ken)

[awjdthumper]

8 hours ago, new3.2 said:

I would think.  will have to find something about that dia. and see what happens.

new3.2

 

If it is about 2" in diameter and 3-4" long, then a wide range of fuses from the late Victorian/ early Edwardian period might have been housed in the fuse tins.

A useful line of investigation might be to try to work out why the fuses were boxed in this manner. There may be two possibilities: this might be a delivery/transit box or it might be an on-site storage box with the latter being possibly more likely given the box only housed 6 fuses. At a guess, I would have thought the fuses were either intended for garrison guns or naval guns with the former being more likely?

 

[new3.2]

So to all interested fuze folk- I took a US WW2 "FUZE DUMMY AT MINE M1 which is 2 1/2 inches long and 1 7/8 inches wide and it fit snugly with the box lid closed.  This is close enough for me.  Thanks to Chasemuseum, Gunner Bailey, and awjdthumper for their additions and interest.

new3.2