My first enfield

[Lammy]

It's real. Will take some more pictures when I get home from work.

[Lammy]

Hinks,wells & co

1901 Manufacturer of pens.

c1917 Apparently the company manufactured the 'Flanders Flap' which was designed to prevent mud getting into the barrel of a rifle, and spring mounted so it could be easily opened, or flip out of the way if a soldier accidentally discharged his rifle without opening it.^[7][8]

Taken from graces guide.

Edited 29 September , 2022 by Lammy

[MrEd]

2 hours ago, Lammy said:

It's real. Will take some more pictures when I get home from work.

Great. Looks in lovely condition, I have never seen a real one in person that wasn’t a rusty lump of relic.

wasn’t there a canvas muzzle cover issued also?

Edited 29 September , 2022 by MrEd

[Lammy]

I believe there was a canvas cover. Though never seen one.

[Pete_C]

14 hours ago, Joolz said:

It's always such a pity to see a nice old rifle like this with its heart chopped out and rendered unusable. I guess that's down to the previous owner and not you, but I can't fathom why someone would do this to such a rifle.

And if you've only just acquired it, whoever sold it to you did so illegally. They should have chopped it up even more before selling it, and then registered it with the Home Office.

 

But on the other hand it means Lammy can own it without the considerable faff involved in obtaining a UK Firearm’s Licence and he doesn’t have to keep it locked away out of sight in a security cabinet - and he could also acquire a service revolver or Vickers/Lewis MG’s if he so wished. I’ve no doubt the introduction of the UK deactivated weapons legislation in 1988 has resulted in the preservation of many more historically important service rifles than would be the case if they were simply left in the shooting community as section 1 firearms. There are still enough very good quality Enfield rifles on the market for shooters who want them but at the same time there’s no denying their relative decline in popularity as viable firearms  - many gun shops / dealers simply no longer stock .303 ammunition, or only in small quantities. 
As to the enforcement of current amendments to the UK legislation, a quick search online would suggest the authorities are sensibly turning a blind eye.

But getting back to Lammy’s excellent (and genuine) Flanders Flap, here’s my contribution to flaps visible in frontline photos - IWM photo Q6926 - Battle of Amiens, Captured German Maxim machine gun, Malard Wood, 9 August 1918.

Pete

 

[Lammy]

As promised a few more images. As it is late the lighting is not to good. So will try again , when I get some time.

 

[MrEd]

Deacs are also sometimes action bodies that are worn, or otherwise end of life rifles. - good number are made of parts built up around a deac body etc. 

i have one that was an heirloom (not mine) years ago (p14) that was deactivated by an old boy who wanted to keep it for sentimental reasons but no longer wanted a FAC. 
the other thing I I can take my deac to talks (homefront ww2) and people can handle it and look at it which I couldn’t do with a live rifle.
 

lots of reasons, and the deac scene is big in the uk so has saved lots of stuff being melted down for scrap 

I am jealous of Lammys flap. They had one at d+b militaria a while back that was genuine to, nice piece of kit 

1 hour ago, Lammy said:

As promised a few more images. As it is late the lighting is not to good. So will try again , when I get some time.

 

Very nice, thanks for sharing  

Edited 29 September , 2022 by MrEd

[Lammy]

It is from dandb. So probably the same one you looked at.Its one of those purchases you forget to tell the wife about. If she notice's, then it's, "it has been on there all along". You blind bat.

Edited 29 September , 2022 by Lammy

[MrEd]

5 minutes ago, Lammy said:

It is from dandb. So probably the same one you looked at.Its one of those purchases you forget to tell the wife about. If she notice's, then it's, "it has been on there all along". You blind bat.

_all_ of my purchases are like that.

i went to D&B to buy an SMLE and the flap, didn’t like the SMLE and didn’t want the flap on its own, so obviously bought a couple of nice rod grenades instead. It’s like a disease :/
 

 

[Joolz]

4 hours ago, Pete_C said:

But on the other hand it means Lammy can own it without the considerable faff involved in obtaining a UK Firearm’s Licence and he doesn’t have to keep it locked away out of sight in a security cabinet - and he could also acquire a service revolver or Vickers/Lewis MG’s if he so wished. I’ve no doubt the introduction of the UK deactivated weapons legislation in 1988 has resulted in the preservation of many more historically important service rifles than would be the case if they were simply left in the shooting community as section 1 firearms. There are still enough very good quality Enfield rifles on the market for shooters who want them but at the same time there’s no denying their relative decline in popularity as viable firearms  - many gun shops / dealers simply no longer stock .303 ammunition, or only in small quantities. 
As to the enforcement of current amendments to the UK legislation, a quick search online would suggest the authorities are sensibly turning a blind eye.

But getting back to Lammy’s excellent (and genuine) Flanders Flap, here’s my contribution to flaps visible in frontline photos - IWM photo Q6926 - Battle of Amiens, Captured German Maxim machine gun, Malard Wood, 9 August 1918.

Pete

 

Pete,

You and I have different definitions of the term 'preservation', it seems. I don't consider a deactivate to be preserved, just butchered. And what's the point in owning an object that doesn't let you do what it's supposed to?

30 years in the gun business, and as a licence holder, I don't see it as a 'faff' to own and shoot (and preserve) these old rifles. And demand for them has never been higher - there's not a week in the gunshop that we don't get people asking for Enfields (SMLE/No. 4/No. 5 etc) and the queue for good shooting ones is long. As for ammo availability, I have shot many thousands of rounds of .303 and only a small percentage of those have been factory bought complete rounds. I don't know of any .303 owner in our club that doesn't reload.

It's true that 'Frankenstein', DP or simply 'relic' rifles can go the way of deactivation to extend their usefulness and no-one would much care, but the real reason for deactivation is money (deactivates have a bigger, more profitable market) and nothing to do with preservation, or the lack of shooters willing to buy them.

And if you wanted to own a service revolver, those can also be held on licence, to shoot or collect, as live guns.

As for an auction house selling old spec deacts illegally, they are still breaking the law, and it is being enforced, albeit piecemeal and with no consistency. But who wants to be the first to go to court?

[MrEd]

14 minutes ago, Joolz said:

Pete,

You and I have different definitions of the term 'preservation', it seems. I don't consider a deactivate to be preserved, just butchered. And what's the point in owning an object that doesn't let you do what it's supposed to?

30 years in the gun business, and as a licence holder, I don't see it as a 'faff' to own and shoot (and preserve) these old rifles. And demand for them has never been higher - there's not a week in the gunshop that we don't get people asking for Enfields (SMLE/No. 4/No. 5 etc) and the queue for good shooting ones is long. As for ammo availability, I have shot many thousands of rounds of .303 and only a small percentage of those have been factory bought complete rounds. I don't know of any .303 owner in our club that doesn't reload.

It's true that 'Frankenstein', DP or simply 'relic' rifles can go the way of deactivation to extend their usefulness and no-one would much care, but the real reason for deactivation is money (deactivates have a bigger, more profitable market) and nothing to do with preservation, or the lack of shooters willing to buy them.

And if you wanted to own a service revolver, those can also be held on licence, to shoot or collect, as live guns.

As for an auction house selling old spec deacts illegally, they are still breaking the law, and it is being enforced, albeit piecemeal and with no consistency. But who wants to be the first to go to court?

There is one thing that deacs can do that live firearms can’t is be publically displayed and handled by the public - I mean in a village hall or conference venue or school etc. (not at a club range day or whatever) which is what I do with one of mine when giving talks on ww2 home front 

Edited 29 September , 2022 by MrEd

[Joolz]

3 hours ago, MrEd said:

There is one thing that deacs can do that live firearms can’t is be publically displayed and handled by the public - I mean in a village hall or conference venue or school etc. (not at a club range day or whatever) which is what I do with one of mine when giving talks on ww2 home front 

True, but given the ratty state of the majority of the 'handling' deact guns I've seen this season, not to mention the masses of Denix junk, the 'nice' guns generally never get anywhere near the public (with good reason, I might add). I don't shed a figurative tear for the junk guns that really should be rendered inoperable. We get enough of those turn up in the shop, that have reached the end of their useful lives. It's the nice, shootable ones that it's such a pity to see butchered in this way.

I've also given talks, demonstrations and handling sessions with live guns, but in a professional capacity, with the proper permissions etc.

[MrEd]

6 hours ago, Joolz said:

True, but given the ratty state of the majority of the 'handling' deact guns I've seen this season, not to mention the masses of Denix junk, the 'nice' guns generally never get anywhere near the public (with good reason, I might add). I don't shed a figurative tear for the junk guns that really should be rendered inoperable. We get enough of those turn up in the shop, that have reached the end of their useful lives. It's the nice, shootable ones that it's such a pity to see butchered in this way.

I've also given talks, demonstrations and handling sessions with live guns, but in a professional capacity, with the proper permissions etc.

Yes to be fair a lot are a total Dogs.

I also don’t understand seeing proper immaculate rarities (matching numbers, barely shot, all original no4 T for example) that are deac. I always wonder what the motivation was to chop it *shrugs*
 

 

denix = junk full stop, literally don’t see the point tbh.

 

anyway straying a bit off topic here, deacs are what they are I guess 

Edited 30 September , 2022 by MrEd

[5thBatt]

Here is my Flanders flap

[Lammy]

Very nice.

[MrEd]

1 hour ago, 5thBatt said:

Here is my Flanders flap

What’s the device in the last picture? Something for supporting a rod grenade or something? 

[4thGordons]

2 hours ago, MrEd said:

What’s the device in the last picture? Something for supporting a rod grenade or something? 

I believe it’s a wire cutter/ breaker

IIRC you push it up against the wire which is then positioned across the muzzle and you pull the trigger and the bullet cuts the wire

Chris

[MrEd]

2 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

I believe it’s a wire cutter/ breaker

IIRC you push it up against the wire which is then positioned across the muzzle and you pull the trigger and the bullet cuts the wire

Chris

Thanks Chris, I guess that’s what the V notch is for, seems obvious now I look again! 
thanks

ed

[trajan]

On 09/09/2022 at 14:11, Lammy said:

Thank you both. I am very pleased with it myself. So 5th Northamptonshire's good to know.

Just had another look at the bayonet. It is just plain Wilkinson. But still with a nice unblemished blade, and for some reason the blade is sharp. Not one I would like to keep out of the scabbard.

Give it a double check. These WILKINSON / PALL MALL marked ones usually have the PALL MALL scrubbed / polished out, sometimes leaving only the faintest traces if at all. What made me think it was one was the dat plus the gap between the visible WILKINSON mark ansd the crossguard.

[trajan]

20 minutes ago, trajan said:

Give it a double check. These WILKINSON / PALL MALL marked ones usually have the PALL MALL scrubbed / polished out, sometimes leaving only the faintest traces if at all. What made me think it was one was the dat plus the gap between the visible WILKINSON mark ansd the crossguard.

Look at this example just posted - https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/300398-canadian-regimentsabbreviations-help/

 

[Lammy]

I will look again using a loop.