John Miller. Northumberland Fusilier's & Koyli's . Confused!

[AuldFlipFlop]

Hello :-) 

I've only just registered but have for the past few years read up on here. I've joined as I've been researching John Millers (My Great Grandfather born 1872/3 military records. As a child I'd heard rumour that he was not old enough to sign up for the Boar war so he borrowed a friend/relative's birth certificate and went to war. I heard something like that about John when I wasn't supposed to be listening as a young child ;-) !  I understand his role in WW1  but the record below gives a bit truth to what I heard on question 11. 

Question 11 asks 'Have you ever served in the military etc' Johns penned 'Yes' with the following some of which is blacked out. 

K.O.Y.L.I.  (Kings Own Yorkshire Light infantry) No 36 R? ..Regiment?
Served under name of Robert ..Is the next initial an A O or U? The surname Urwin rings a bell! 

Also there's 2 numbers at top of form, John crossed one out and put new one there. Was the crossed out one the regiment number he served under in Koyli's as I know the visible one is his unit for 1914 NF 

I would love to be able to find out exactly what he did in the Koyli's , if he did indeed go to South Africa in 1889, I contacted Northumberland Fusilier's but drew a blank due to record being blacked out on surname.  I've explored every avenue and still nothing! I do think it would of been NF that formed part of the KOYLI's .

Sorry about my waffle :-) Thank you, yours in anticipation. Auld Flip Flop

 

[PRC]

Hi @AuldFlipFlop and what sounds like a very belated welcome to the forum

If he was serving with the Regular Army Battalions of the Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry, then you are probably looking at a four digit regimental service number in the range 3610 - 3619. By January 1914 the five digit numbers they were issuing had only reached 11008. I can't see it being a three digit number.

Those four digit numbers would have been issued between the 29th October 1891, (3565) and the 15th August 1892, (3882). See Robert Nixon' Army Service number website https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/08/kings-own-yorkshire-light-infantry-1st.html

So by then if he had been born 1872/1873 he would have been aged between 18 and 20. All this would all be well before the 2nd Anglo-Boer War of 1899-1902.

I could edit couldn't find surviving Army records for all the individuals between 3610 and 3619, but given the other details I suspect one of the ones I could find may be your man.

3618 Robert Carmichael attested at Pontefract on the 9th December 1891 – although his medical and appearance before a magistrate seems to have taken place at Ipswich, Suffolk on the 5th. He enlisted for 12 years split 7 years in the colours and 5 in the reserves. He stated he was born in the parish of Baker, Newcastle, Northumberland, and was then aged 18 years and 11 months. His normal trade was Groom. His next of kin was given as his brother George Carmichael, of Baker near Newcastle.

He was tried and convicted by District Court Martial on the 25th July 1892 of having fraudulently enlisted but on completion of his time in Military Prison he was allowed to continue serving. All service up to the 24th August July 1892 was forfeited and his 12 years started again. Served in India 1894 – 1899. While there served with the Tirah Expeditionary Force on the Punjab Frontier 1897-98, being present in the action at the Shin Kanar Pass(?) 29th January 1898. (see https://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armycampaigns/indiancampaigns/tirah.htm

Served in South Africa 1899-1900. Extended his time in the Reserves for an additional four years by joining Army Reserve D. Finally discharged time expired 14th August 1908.

Thats just a taster - the record is in the National Archive series WO97 and is certainly available on FindMyPast and Genes Reunited, and hopefully will also be on Ancestry and Fold3.

I assume "Baker", Newcastle might be Byker?

Hope that's not a red herring.

For completeness the other three I could find were:-

3610 Ernest Lynn attested at Dewsbury on the 3rd December 1891. He enlisted for 12 years split 7 years in the colours and 5 in the reserves. Went out to India 1893 to 1899, was back in the UK for a few months before being sent out to South Africa  1899 – 1902.

3615 Ernest James Tanser attested at Pontefract on the 6th December 1891. He enlisted for 12 years split 7 years in the colours and 5 in the reserves. Discharged medically unfit 30th November 1894.

3617 John Bell attested at Pontefract on the 9th December 1891. He enlisted for 12 years split 7 years in the colours and 5 in the reserves. Discharged 31st March 1892 with ignominy, having been found to have made a fraudulent statement on enlistment.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 8 September , 2022 by PRC
1) Typo 2) Correct the date his service was forfeited too

[AuldFlipFlop]

Oh wow!!! This is amazing Peter and yes Robert Carmichael does seem to fit the bill especially with the groom employment! I will research all of this tomorrow. What I do know is that with John Miller dates vary, he may have been born 1870, none of the birth dates/places on military / census/wedding certificates tally but I feel he gave honest above-board details on this 1914 record. This information you have passed to me is the 1st thing I've had to investigate/fathom for a good few year. Thank you! I'll get back to you Old Sweats (I'm laughing!) if I find this is my man John :-) 

Ta very much, Tracy 

[PRC]

On 08/09/2022 at 01:07, AuldFlipFlop said:

Thank you! I'll get back to you Old Sweats (I'm laughing!) if I find this is my man John :-) 

Glad to help - for me the nearest thing to a clincher is the date of being "Discharged T.E", (i.e Time Expired), from the KOYLI on the 14th August on the 1914 enlistment. The more I look at that document then the more convinced I am that the year reads "08".

He had another spell in Military Prison in 1898, and so extended the expiry date on his enlistment, with the expiry of his 12 years being pushed into August. That would be almost certainly a unique set of circumstances - the chances that any of the men whose records I could not track down just happened to have a discharge on the same day and month I would have thought would have been very, very small.

On 07/09/2022 at 23:26, AuldFlipFlop said:

As a child I'd heard rumour that he was not old enough to sign up for the Boar war so he borrowed a friend/relative's birth certificate and went to war.

Except in the most blatant cases of underage \ overage applicants, the armed forces didn't ask for a birth certificate or any proof of age. A man's age was what he stated on the attestation form - even if a true age was subsequently proven from a birth certificate \ baptismal certificate, a serving man would retain his Army Age. So possible John was underage if he enlisted as Robert Carmichael on the 9th December 1891 but by the time the offence came to light he had reached 18 and so was offered the chance to stay in.

The peacetime Army continually struggled to  secure enough recruits. The 10 and a bit months I looked at, (October 1891 \ August 1892), saw 318 individuals recruited to support two Regular Army Battalions with a combined strength of over 2,000 individuals, of which roughly a seventh transferred to the reserve every year even before you take into account discharges, desertions and transfers. You'd need everyone of those recruits to make it through training every year just to stay anywhere near full-strength. The reality was that most Regiments couldn't manage it. In a typical County Regiment there would be two Regular Army Battalions, one overseas maintained at full strength, and one in the Home Isles frequently no more than half strength.

In those circumstances the Army couldn't afford to be too fussy and investigate exact ages. And it wasn't just a problem in the 1880's. A soldier shouldn't have been allowed to join Army Reserve D unless they had a fairly clean disciplinary record - not something Robert Carmichael can be said to have had. But the Boer War had shown how meagre the Army Reserves were, so again the Army had to lower the bar to retain experienced men.

On 07/09/2022 at 23:26, AuldFlipFlop said:

with the following some of which is blacked out. 

An attempt has been made to mend the page with something like sellotape which through a combination of discolouring with age and the intense light used in the scanning process has created the masking effect.

On 07/09/2022 at 23:26, AuldFlipFlop said:

Also there's 2 numbers at top of form, John crossed one out and put new one there.

This is a part of the form completed by the administration, not the recruit. The 7444 would have been the number initially issued. The Army didn't run a system of unique Army service numbers until 1920. At the start of the war, other than the Regular Army Battalions, most Battalions of a large Regiment like the Northumberland Fusiliers would use their own service number scheme. A Regiment could have multiple men with the service number 7444. For administrative purposes they were normally distinguished with a preceding letter, or a number to reflect the Battalion, i.e 5/7444 or 14/7444. But on a day to day basis the prefix was dropped and seldom used in the field. In this set up if a man changed Battalion he also gained a new service number.

I don't subscribe to Ancestry or FindMyPast so can't check out Johns' record, but hopefully it will be clear about which Battalions he served with.

Cheers,
Peter

Edit. P.S. The Forum rules request that you acknowledge the source of any document taken from the likes of Ancestry \ FindMyPast\ National Archive etc, etc. Any chance you can edit your first post, (click on the three squares at the top right), to add the source. Thanks, Peter.

Edited 9 September , 2022 by PRC
Typos

[Matlock1418]

Welcome to GWF.

In haste ... this Ministry of Pensions' disability pension card may perhaps help - it has a whole raft of numbers - 374932, 7444, 9963, 3618, 9963, 25032 [including some new ones it would seem - might aid your searches].

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

374932 - offers several other pension cards - including some that indicates him as CSM, Labour Corps, claimed for Malaria, Man died 28-3-25

M

Edit: Having had a bit more time - a pension ledger index card records give his YoB as 1868, his address as 5 Maughan St, Newcastle [later 65 Buddle Road and then 20 Ash Street - as for his widow, Elizabeth] his level of disability was rated 40-50% over the 1920-23 period - he was in receipt of a Service Pension so his disability pension would have been slightly reduced but was on top of his SP. ironically/sadly his disability pension had a Final Award (Life) 18-2-25 but of course we can see he died just a month later.

Having searched amongst the few remaining PIN 26 files at TNA it rather looks like his main pension file has not survived [typically they were deliberately destroyed once their use was over]

 

Edited 8 September , 2022 by Matlock1418
edit added

[FROGSMILE]

Brilliant and very interesting research by Peter (and Matlock).  Cerebral Malaria was a common disease for soldiers who served overseas to contract and often killed them years later after periodic bouts of intense fever punctuated by periods of uneasy remission.  They were commonly unable to hold down a job in such circumstances and often lived a hand to mouth life of abject penury.  A sad and poignant story of a man who served for much of his life.  Discipline was extremely harsh and it was easy to get into trouble.  He is typical of the kind of older man to end up in the Labour Corps (LC) and his past service clearly made him a good fit for Company Sergeant Major.  If his record can be found and his LC company number extracted it might be possible to determine what type of unit it was.  

Edited 9 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[TEW]

That pretty much nails it for Peter's suspect 3618 Robert Carmichael.

He has two Campaign medal rolls under those details and both 2nd KOYLI.

Cpl. R Carmichael Indian Medal 1895 with clasp Tirah 1897-8. Wiki Link

Private R Carmichael South Africa Medal with clasp Cape Colony. I think this would be the QSA? He was invalided to England.

TEW

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

374932

From Starling and Lee's excellent history of the Labour Corps, 'No Labour, No Battle', [p.322], this 374932 LC number appears to have been issued September to November 1917 [the inference from their listing of such numbers is that it was likely issued in the UK, rather than overseas]

M

Edited 8 September , 2022 by Matlock1418

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

From Starling and Lee's excellent history of the Labour Corps, 'No Labour, No Battle', [p.322], this 374932 LC number appears to have been issued September to November 1917 [the inference from their listing of such numbers is that it was likely issued in the UK, rather than overseas]

M

I wonder if he was in one of the LC Agricultural companies.  If he had residual Malaria from South Africa I doubt that he would have been fit enough for France & Flanders.

Edited 8 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[AuldFlipFlop]

On 07/09/2022 at 23:26, AuldFlipFlop said:

Hello :-) 

I've only just registered but have for the past few years read up on here. I've joined as I've been researching John Millers (My Great Grandfather born 1872/3 military records. As a child I'd heard rumour that he was not old enough to sign up for the Boar war so he borrowed a friend/relative's birth certificate and went to war. I heard something like that about John when I wasn't supposed to be listening as a young child ;-) !  I understand his role in WW1  but the record below gives a bit truth to what I heard on question 11. 

Question 11 asks 'Have you ever served in the military etc' Johns penned 'Yes' with the following some of which is blacked out. 

K.O.Y.L.I.  (Kings Own Yorkshire Light infantry) No 36 R? ..Regiment?
Served under name of Robert ..Is the next initial an A O or U? The surname Urwin rings a bell! 

Also there's 2 numbers at top of form, John crossed one out and put new one there. Was the crossed out one the regiment number he served under in Koyli's as I know the visible one is his unit for 1914 NF 

I would love to be able to find out exactly what he did in the Koyli's , if he did indeed go to South Africa in 1889, I contacted Northumberland Fusilier's but drew a blank due to record being blacked out on surname.  I've explored every avenue and still nothing! I do think it would of been NF that formed part of the KOYLI's .

Sorry about my waffle :-) Thank you, yours in anticipation. Auld Flip Flop

 

Image thanks to Ancestry 

[AuldFlipFlop]

The information yous have given me is something else, I never thought I'd get much back, so this is brilliant info! Now I just need to get my head around it all and set out to find further Military info for John and further info on both John & Robert as I hit a brick wall with John Miller lineage on my family tree and for Robert I will need to find where he lived as a child to check in case him and John lived near each other or if there is a family connection to Robert.  I was near give up stage of finding anything and now this help you lot have given me has got me back to my old determined to find out self again!  I'm very proud of John and also proud of many of my great uncles & GG uncles who died in WW1 

Apologies about the non-credit rule break, I did try to amend but hovering over the 3 dots gave no option than report / share.  I tried another way and have added the credit, but I'll give myself a know how lesson on here soon and also read the forum rules as I have read up on here now and then over the years whilst researching. I love the Gallery! 

Thanks again, the time spent & help yous have given is very much appreciated!

Tracy

[AuldFlipFlop]

Here's John would this info shed any light ?

9963 Srj  No, 2 Coy,. Depot N.F 3829  

 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, AuldFlipFlop said:

Here's John would this info shed any light ?

9963 Srj  No, 2 Coy,. Depot N.F 3829  

 

This suggests that he was a “Sjt” (short for Serjeant), which was the old fashioned way of spelling Sergeant and common until gradually changing between the two world wars.

Before 1913 regular infantry battalions were commonly organised in eight lettered or numbered companies (1 to 8 or A to F), but from that year companies were paired to form four double (sized) companies, most usually A to D but also W to Z and 1 to 4, depending on regimental preference.

In your case he was in No 2 company of the Depot, Northumberland Fusiliers, at Fenham Barracks, Newcastle upon Tyne (the Depot was the regimental headquarters, but more importantly the place where the basic training of all new recruits to the regiment was carried out). Fenham Barracks was shared and also the HQ and Depot for the Durham Light Infantry. 

 

 

Edited 9 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE