New find british first line ww1

[Flavio]

Here are two interesting new findings from the English frontline.
The first piece of almost square shape with measures of 17 cm x 13 cm. With an inscription on a nameplate that seems to me to carry the word Dial Sight.
The second is very strange and I am considering the restoration if it were actually an interesting piece.
It is an inverted trapezoid structure where the front part is clearly interrupted and does not reach the length of the other three sides.
It can be clearly seen that above there is a hinge that allowed closure with a lid that closed against a profile.
The piece measures 30cm height.
On the 14cm wide part. x 10cm.
On the narrowest part about 9cm. x 8cm.

Thank you for your answers and comments, sorry for my Google translation English and sorry if Google makes me copy the text with a black background every now and then

[mancpal]

Sorry Flavio I can’t add much . On the first picture there appears to be a crest with lettering. Any chance of a close up?

I hasten to add that I’m looking at this on my phone, it’s after my bedtime and what I think I see could equally be a lump of rust. Could it be a fancy biscuit tin lid?

No idea about the 2nd item.

Simon

[FROGSMILE]

Does the square plate with the dial sight label on fit in terms of dimensions on the wider end of the trapezoid object.  In the photos it looks as if it might assuming the scale is the same.  If it does fit then the whole thing when fitted together might be a storage case in which the dial sight was stowed for protection when not fitted to the gun. 
However, it does not look the right shape for the most common No 7 dial sight, nor any other British dial sight and case that I’ve ever seen.  Also the cases are usually made of heavy duty bridle and saddle quality leather. 

Edited 5 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

The lid looks to say something like..

DIAL SIGHT 

ILLUMINATING

No 2 ..

Walter ....CoLtd

And as frogsmile suggests could be the lid of the trapezoid box, when you allow for thickness of an inner lining to protect a dial sight. The box being fixed vertically on the gunshield. 

Just my view.

 

Edited 5 September , 2022 by charlie962

[Flavio]

I try to be more helpful

The "cap" so to speak with the inscription is in fact larger than the top measure of the object from the largest part.

The trapezoidal box appears to have an evident sign of anchoring on the outside.

In the past, even if the metal box had been covered externally or internally with leather or hide after 100 years, not even a shadow would have remained.

I assure you that all the objects I find on the front with the metal detector whether they are Italian, Austrian or English that in the past were covered or made of leather only 5% bear traces of them.

[Flavio]

I have put new images where I hope you can see better the points of where particular attacks and closing points were probably present.

I also pointed out that the "front" wall is shorter and ends with a clean cutI try to be more helpful

The "cap" so to speak with the inscription is in fact larger than the top measure of the object from the largest part.

The trapezoidal box appears to have an evident sign of anchoring on the outside.

In the past, even if the metal box had been covered externally or internally with leather or hide after 100 years, not even a shadow would have remained.

I assure you that all the objects I find on the front with the metal detector whether they are Italian, Austrian or English that in the past were covered or made of leather only 5% bear traces of them.

[Flavio]

Here are also more photos of the lid, I think I can also see the word "set"

[Flavio]

Ahh, very important and sorry for not declaring it immediately ... The two pieces were found the two different places very distant from each other and at different times

[FROGSMILE]

I cannot help with the trapezoidal object, whose purpose escapes me, but the attachment points suggest it was perhaps a part of something larger.

The label embossed with lettering is now much more clear.  It is the lid of a stowage box marked DIAL SIGHT ILLUMINATING SET.  These illuminating sets were designed to make possible the efficient laying of the artillery piece (gun) for accurate night firing in indirect fire mode.  They were usually either, electrical and powered by a dry cell battery via a series of leads and small lamps, or provided light via chemical phosphorescence, often using Tritium paint (which emitted radiation and so had to be enclosed and sealed).

Whichever type it was (I’m not sure when the chemical phosphorescent type was first devised), they functioned to illuminate the indices against which the range (elevation) and bearing (direction) was set, plus levelling bubbles that ensured a perfectly upright and stable orientation (clinometer).  During daylight hours they were usually removed and stowed securely in the storage & transit box. 

Edited 6 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Flavio]

Thanks @FROGSMILEfor your precise answer, by chance you have some photos of this particular set

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, Flavio said:

Thanks @FROGSMILEfor your precise answer, by chance you have some photos of this particular set

I have tried to seek out an image, but unfortunately cannot find one of such an obscure device online.  If @ianjonesnclcannot help then your best option will be to contact the ‘Firepower’ Museum based at Larkhill, although I do not know the extent of their operation since moving from London.

Edited 6 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Interested]

 "Walters Electric Manufacturing Co. Ld" can be found in Grace's Register of Companies.

Here's the link:

Walters Electrical Manufacturing Co - Graces Guide

Interesting find, I think.

[tootrock]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

often using Tritium paint (which emitted radiation and so had to be enclosed and sealed).

Tritium was not isolated until 1939, so any luminous paint used during the Great War would have contained Radium.

Martin

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

"Illuminating" Set, rather than "Lighting" Set I think.

Edited 6 September , 2022 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[ianjonesncl]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The label embossed with lettering is now much more clear.  It is the lid of a stowage box marked DIAL SIGHT LIGHTING SET.  These lighting sets were designed to make possible the efficient laying of the artillery piece (gun) for accurate night firing in indirect fire mode.  

Something I have not come accross and wonder if there are any accounts of them being used. 

A modern practice was to keep spare sights at the Command Post as it was a central point where they could be collected if required, rather than with the Battery Quarter Master some distance away in the wagon lines. 

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 They were usually either, electrical and powered by a dry cell battery via a series of leads and small lamps,

Which would be consistent with Walters Electrical Manufacturing Co - Graces Guide being electrical equipment manufacturers.

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, ianjonesncl said:

Something I have not come accross and wonder if there are any accounts of them being used. 

A modern practice was to keep spare sights at the Command Post as it was a central point where they could be collected if required, rather than with the Battery Quarter Master some distance away in the wagon lines. 

Which would be consistent with Walters Electrical Manufacturing Co - Graces Guide being electrical equipment manufacturers.

Yes I think that electrical is more likely at that time.  Tritium and Trilux evolved for WW2.

[ianjonesncl]

It would be interesting to know if they were general issue to all guns ? Or a specilaist piece of equipment for a specific use ? 

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

38 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

"Illuminating" Set, rather than "Lighting" Set I think.

Yes just spotted that and corrected it before seeing your comment.  

7 minutes ago, ianjonesncl said:

It would be interesting to know if they were general issue to all guns ? Or a specilaist piece of equipment for a specific use ? 

 

 

 

Yes, the dial sights were relatively unsophisticated at that time when compared with WW2 I think. I imagine that they (illuminating sets) probably were more a priority for the heavier guns.

Edited 6 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Flavio]

On 06/09/2022 at 08:03, Flavio said:

I have put new images where I hope you can see better the points of where particular attacks and closing points were probably present.

I also pointed out that the "front" wall is shorter and ends with a clean cutI try to be more helpful

The "cap" so to speak with the inscription is in fact larger than the top measure of the object from the largest part.

The trapezoidal box appears to have an evident sign of anchoring on the outside.

In the past, even if the metal box had been covered externally or internally with leather or hide after 100 years, not even a shadow would have remained.

I assure you that all the objects I find on the front with the metal detector whether they are Italian, Austrian or English that in the past were covered or made of leather only 5% bear traces of them.

And here is another similar object found in the English artillery area but completely different from the previous one.
This in excellent condition as you see.
The mystery of its original appearance and use deepens

 

[FROGSMILE]

It’s a very odd looking object, I’ve no idea what it is.  There isn’t anything obvious that connects it to artillery equipment that I can see, but perhaps m’learned colleague @ianjonesnclmight recognise something.

[ianjonesncl]

The only things that come to mind which are Artillery related are;

Centre object - container for holding dial sight? The anchoring used at attach the container to a gun?

However, this is conjecture. A preliminary look at photographs of guns has not confirmed this. 

Right hand object - looks like a modern container for a charge thermometer, though not sure this was in use WW1?

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, ianjonesncl said:

The only things that come to mind which are Artillery related are;

Centre object - container for holding dial sight? The anchoring used at attach the container to a gun?

However, this is conjecture. A preliminary look at photographs of guns has not confirmed this. 

Right hand object - looks like a modern container for a charge thermometer, though not sure this was in use WW1?

The charge thermometer is a good thought but like you I’m not sure if they were in use then (seems unlikely at first thought).  I suppose as well as the guns themselves there are also limbers, and towing tractors to be considered with regards to potential attachments.  Nothing meaningful really comes to mind though.

[Flavio]

Thanks guys for your answers, we are groping in the dark with this container, but to help you I wanted to highlight that it was not found in the artillery area but on the English front line.