"C" prefix - King's Royal Rifle Corps

[Jim Strawbridge]

conijoni started a thread about the C prefix in King's Royal Rifle Corps.

"I would like to address the misnomer that soldiers with a 'C' prefix are all connected to the Church Lads' Brigade. This has been claimed several times over the years and it is entirely wrong.  Only men with a 'C' Prefix between C/1 and around C/1770, and who were attached to the 16th KRRC, can be identified as Church Lads' Brigade. Other 'C' prefix numbers cannot be attributed to the CLB."   

That thread has been placed in the "naughty room" as there was reference to an eBay posting. As conjoni's comment was new to me I feel it worth reposting to see if anyone else can expand on the subject.  If the "C" was so narrow as to cover such few servicemen could the "C" actually have another connotation.

[mancpal]

I’m interested also.

Simon

[EDWARD1]

The Great War Medal Collectors Companion Vol 11 Howard Williamson quotes ;-

C1-C1999 16th Btn, C3001-C4999 17th, C6001-C7999 18th, C9001-C9999 20th and C12001-C12999 21st

[conijoni]

Hi Jim

Thank you for picking this up and reposting. I was going to repost without the auction reference but you have beaten me to it.

There are two things relating to the Church Lads' Brigade that are often wrongly stated. 

1. Some claim that 16th KRRC soldiers wore the CLB KRRC Cadets badge. They wore the standard KRRC badge.

2. It has been stated that if a soldier has a 'C' prefix then he must be a former member of the CLB. This is wrong.

I was interested in your comment re the connotation of the 'C'. What do you understand it to be?

 

 

Edited 4 September , 2022 by conijoni

[Jim Strawbridge]

20 hours ago, conijoni said:

I was interested in your comment re the connotation of the 'C'. What do you understand it to be?

 

 

Ah, there's the rub. I have no idea hence put out there to see if anyone has any thoughts. Not all KRRC service numbers commence with a prefix. Hence, once all the known Church Lads were issued with their service number for what reason would the prefix continue to be used?  I haven't looked at surviving service papers and "Christian" doesn't feel right. But what about "Chapel" - ie  those of baptist or Methodist faith.  I suspect that there was no rhyme or reason why the C prefix continued but just did.

[conijoni]

I have no idea why a 'C' prefix was chosen. Was it chosen for Church or Cadet? Or was it a totally random choice? Maybe somebody out there will know.

[johnboy]

At top is shown as Church Lads Battalion

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1219/images/30599_156252-00192?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=e0cad780eff324f0210ccaa8d59f8ca9&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LtR18&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=1007383

[Jim Strawbridge]

I wasn't really disputing the C for Church Lads. I was really wondering why some soldiers with a service number above C1770 should have still had the C prefix without any association with the Church Lads. Non-prefix numbers were available to the K.R.R.C. 

[johnboy]

I had not seen Church lads Battalion used bfore....only battalion number.

[Matlock1418]

The Church Lads' Brigade have become the Church Lads' & Church Girls' Brigade

And have a Historical Group now https://www.clcgb.org.uk/about-us/history 

They have produced some Factsheets including: Brigade Factsheet 13 - The 16th Battalion KRRC https://www.clcgb.org.uk/documents/historical-group/194-brigade-factsheet-13-the-16th-battalion-krrc

Who knows what else they might have have unearthed???

= If interested I guess you could ask them.

M

Edit: As they are interested in the KRRC, including the 16th Bn., perhaps @MBrockway may be able to assist ??

Edited 8 September , 2022 by Matlock1418
Edit added

[johnboy]

MedalRoll shows C1470 frederick Marchant as 3rd battn. Willlook for ServiceRecord

 

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5119/images/41629_636897_11098-00307?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&pId=100023

[MBrockway]

We've posted extensively on the letter prefixes in the KRRC and the RB elsewhere on this forum.

I'll see if I can locate the topics and cross link, but they should be findable with some intelligent use of the forum search tool.

However I'm away from home just now and have limited Internet access.

 

Johnny has already highlighted the most serious KRRC/CLB howlers we see regularly.

 

For what it's worth, I feel the choice of 'C' for the KRRC's K4 battalions, of which 16/KRRC was only one of many, is unrelated to the initial letter of CLB.

 

Mark

 

[MBrockway]

On 08/09/2022 at 10:45, Jim Strawbridge said:

I wasn't really disputing the C for Church Lads. I was really wondering why some soldiers with a service number above C1770 should have still had the C prefix without any association with the Church Lads. Non-prefix numbers were available to the K.R.R.C. 

 

KRRC all numeric numbers, without letter prefixes, were used for those enlisting as Regulars, i.e. career soldiers intending up to continue their service into peacetime.

Mark,

[MBrockway]

On 08/09/2022 at 11:58, Matlock1418 said:

The Church Lads' Brigade have become the Church Lads' & Church Girls' Brigade

And have a Historical Group now https://www.clcgb.org.uk/about-us/history 

They have produced some Factsheets including: Brigade Factsheet 13 - The 16th Battalion KRRC https://www.clcgb.org.uk/documents/historical-group/194-brigade-factsheet-13-the-16th-battalion-krrc

Who knows what else they might have have unearthed???

= If interested I guess you could ask them.

M

Edit: As they are interested in the KRRC, including the 16th Bn., perhaps @MBrockway may be able to assist ??

Pal conijoni is a very active member of the CLCGB Historical Group and regularly cascades any new information the group discovers.

[MBrockway]

On 08/09/2022 at 00:52, johnboy said:

At top is shown as Church Lads Battalion

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1219/images/30599_156252-00192?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=e0cad780eff324f0210ccaa8d59f8ca9&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LtR18&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=1007383

This rubber stamp for the 16/KRRC originals is not unusual.

[MBrockway]

19 hours ago, johnboy said:

MedalRoll shows C1470 frederick Marchant as 3rd battn. Willlook for ServiceRecord

 

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5119/images/41629_636897_11098-00307?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&pId=100023

Implies Rfn Marchant was first posted into 16/KRRC, but was transferred to 3/KRRC while still in the UK.

[johnboy]

So he carried his number over. Went overseas with 3Rd?

[MBrockway]

31 minutes ago, johnboy said:

So he carried his number over. Went overseas with 3Rd?

Not quite - it's more likely he was sent out to 3/KRRC as a replenishment draft, joining them in theatre.

At outbreak of war, 3/KRRC were in India.  On 19 Nov 1914 they were back in Blighty, re-embarking for F&F on 21 Dec 1914.  A C/1490 KRRC service number suggests a probable enlistment and posting to 16/KRRC in Q2 1915, some months after 3/KRC went out.

However I have no service/pension record for him. 

Once allocated a KRRC service number, it would be very unusual to see that changed on any internal transfer.

 

Do you have any specific interest in C/1490 Rfn Marchant, or has he come up because of his 3/KRRC medal roll reference?

Mark

 

[johnboy]

2 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

Do you have any specific interest in C/1490 Rfn Marchant, or has he come up because of his 3/KRRC medal roll reference?

No specific interest just the Roll showing him as 3KRRC with a C prefix

[MBrockway]

My own grandfather was posted to 16/KRRC after recovering from a Blighty wound.  His original bn was 12/KRRC and he was allocated a typical K2 KRRC service number with the 'R/' letter prefix.  He retained his R/ number throughout.

[johnboy]

My grandfather was in 2 krrc with R prefix.

No service record for him.

Edited 9 September , 2022 by johnboy

[MBrockway]

On 09/09/2022 at 14:30, MBrockway said:

This rubber stamp for the 16/KRRC originals is not unusual.

Another example, enlisted 18 Sep 1916 ...

 

[brianmorris547]

The ROH for Bolton Parish Church in the Bolton Chronicle 04/12/1915 lists under KRRC two names H K Smith and Joseph Wallwork. There is a hospital admission in MH 106/711 08/10/1916 for 13383 (R/13383 on the Medal Rolls) Pte Joseph Wallwork - 12 Bn - gsw chest - to 4 Ambulance Train on the same day. Then under C.L.B. there are thirty more names. Those I could find have a C. prefix and were 16 Bn, most with a 1914-15 Star date of 16/11/1915.

The ROH for Bolton Lads Club in the Bolton Chronicle 25/12/1915 lists under KRRC three names including W Monks killed 26 Sep. This was Wilfred Monks R/8115. He has papers which show that he was wounded on 26/09/1915 and died of wounds on the same day. He was serving with 1Bn KRRC. Then under C.L.B. there are nine more names. Those I could find have a C. prefix and were 16 Bn.

I will have a closer look at the CLB names tomorrow.

Brian

[MBrockway]

Thanks for posting this Brian.  I'd be very grateful indeed to have all the names.

The KRRC and RB letter prefixes are frequently missed off in some of the source documents, which is not at all helpful!

The Silver War Badge roll is particularly bad in this respect.

Many thanks.

Mark

[brianmorris547]

Mark

Working on it. I have checked my other RsOH from the Bolton papers and have found a few more names. I will list them when I have checked them out. In the meantime these are the two pages of the Bolton Parish Church ROH (right hand column only - as far as James Wimbush).

Brian