Number of Crashes/Deaths in Flying Training at Netheravon and/or Witney, 1918?

[Buffnut453]

Is there any good source of information from which I could determine the number of aircraft crashes and/or deaths of personnel during flying training at Netheravon and Witney during the periods 21 Jan 1918 - 31 Mar 1918, and 1 Apr 1918 - 30 Jun 1918 respectively?

I'm guessing this may be a hard problem with no worthwhile solution...but maybe the experts out there have some useful suggestions?  

[alex revell]

No problem at all. You'll find all you want in Trevor Henshaw's The Sky Their Battlefield published Fetubi Books. There is a website 

[Buffnut453]

Alas, "The Sky Their Battlefield" only lists casualties from operational squadrons in the UK.  It doesn't include those from training units.  

Edited 1 September , 2022 by Buffnut453

[Buffnut453]

Seems like my google-fu was just lacking yesterday.  Tried another approach today and found these pages listing fatal air accidents in the UK, one for Jan-Mar 1918 and the other for Apr-Jun. 

http://www.rcawsey.co.uk/Acc1918.htm (Jan-Mar 1918)

http://www.rcawsey.co.uk/Acc1918a.htm (Apr-Jun 1918)

A copy-paste into a Word doc and I can search for Witney and Netheravon and find all the details I needed.  There are rather fewer fatal accidents than I was expecting, perhaps just 4 or 5 during the 6 months in question for the Training Squadron that interests me.    

I really feel stupid when I answer my own questions.  However, hope the above links may be of use to someone else on GWF who wasn't aware of their existence.  

Edited 1 September , 2022 by Buffnut453

[mickdavis]

I'm not sure how my spreadsheet will turn out when pasted here but the relevant units were 7, 8 & 24 TS and the Casualty Cards for these during those periods mentioned were:

 

6.1.1918	Forbes	JR	Lt	injured	7 TS	DH6	A9688	3767/WD15907
30.1.1918	Dell	John Ed Flower	2Lt	injured	7 TS	RE8	A4504	30968/WD20992
3.2.1918	Ottewell	William Henry	2Lt	injured	7 TS	DH6	C1958	RAF E1120/WD5271
15.2.1918	Tapp	RB	2Lt	injured	7 TS	BF	C4642	RR 311/WD18655
15.2.1918	Little	HC	2Lt	injured	7 TS	BF	C857	RR 417/WD15751
7.4.1918	Bundock	William Henry	2Lt	injured	7 TS	RE8	C4569	9950
19.4.1918	Scully	J	Pte	injured	7 TS
26.4.1918	Gose	JH	Lt	injured	7 TS	RE8	B5120	3134/WD21249
11.5.1918	Yeoman	Bryan Frank Lawson	Lt	killed	7 TS	BF	B8930	2/F/WD18415
9.5.1919	Anderson	ASJ	Lt	injured	7 TS	Avro	E3450	Mono 30642/WD11715
16.2.1918	Overbury	RF	2Lt	injured	8 TS	BF	A7297	291/WD10476
24.2.1918	Bulteel	TE	Lt	killed	8 TS	BF	C4809	231/WD10413
1.4.1918	Thompson	John Henry	2Lt	injured	8 TS	DH6	C7211	Renault WD12863
6.5.1918	Hinchcliffe	Rowland	Cpl	killed	8 TS	BE2e	A8629	WD2643
8.6.1918	Scully	Norman Reeves	2Lt	injured	8 TS	BF	C4717	3/F/509/WD32654
29.6.1918	Tugwell	Kenneth Stanley	Flt Cdt	injured	8 TS	DH6		RAF 5942/32347
5.1.1918	Whetman	RI	2Lt	injured	24 TS	MF Se.11	B4781	1587/WD12742
12.2.1918	Collins	Charles Frank	2Lt	injured	24 TS	DH6	C7297	WD1693
13.3.1918	Hurst	Charles William	2Lt	injured	24 TS	BF	C4702	190hp RR 435/WD32617
1.5.1918	Young	FJ	2Lt	killed	24 TS	BE2e	B4593	5818/WD32223

[Buffnut453]

Many thanks for that listing, Mick. Your listing adds a lot of additional info about injured casualties that, for obvious reasons, wasn't in the list of fatalities.  

It seems your Excel paste seems to have worked, although I wonder if it lost a few rows as there are 3 fatal accidents identified in the web pages I posted earler that don't appear on your list.  In case you're interested, here they are:

3.5.18    Bristol Fighter B8914, 8 TS, Witney
    Hit hangar roof on approach, Witney
    2Lt Alfred Victor Flavell (23) killed
    Lt Leslie Gordon Harvey injured

24.5.18    D.H.6 C6518, 8 TDS, Netheravon
    Wing came off pulling out of dive after loop, Codford, Wilts.
    Major Benjamin Stevens Jordan (34) killed (New Zealander)
    Lt Joseph James Daly (26) killed (pilot, American)
 

26.1.18    AW F.K.8 C3527, 24 TS, Netheravon
    Spun, nose dived and caught fire on ferry flight, Spittlegate

    2Lt Allan Ross McPherson (19) killed (Canadian)

 

Edited 1 September , 2022 by Buffnut453

[Buffnut453]

The CWGC database has a few more related deaths that haven't appeared in either list yet:

SECOND LIEUTENANT WILLIAM ERNEST WESTCOTT
Royal Air Force
8th Training Sqdn.
Died 28 April 1918
Age 19 years old
Buried or commemorated at
BECKENHAM CREMATORIUM AND CEMETERY
S2. 6689.
United Kingdom

SECOND LIEUTENANT ERNEST PEACOCK
Royal Air Force
No. 8 Training Depot Station,
Died 26 May 1918
Buried or commemorated at
NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE (ST. JOHN'S WESTGATE AND ELSWICK) CEMETERY
R. U. 587.
United Kingdom

AIR MECHANIC 2ND CLASS
ERNEST HARROW
Service Number: 405442
Royal Air Force
24th Training Sqdn.
Died 11 June 1918
Buried or commemorated at
COVENTRY (LONDON ROAD) CEMETERY
198. 45.
United Kingdom
 

The last one may have nothing to do with an aircraft crash but probably still worth including in my list, just in case it was a work-related accident.  

Now, in fairness, I still get confused by the different designations in use, such as 8 TS and 8 TDS.  The latter makes me think of an actual airfield as opposed to a Training Squadron.  However, I'm assuming both these deaths relate to my original question.  If so, it seems there's little consistency across the various records....which isn't all that surprising.  

Edited 2 September , 2022 by Buffnut453

[MikeMeech]

1 hour ago, Buffnut453 said:

The CWGC database has a few more related deaths that haven't appeared in either list yet:

SECOND LIEUTENANT WILLIAM ERNEST WESTCOTT
Royal Air Force
8th Training Sqdn.
Died 28 April 1918
Age 19 years old
Buried or commemorated at
BECKENHAM CREMATORIUM AND CEMETERY
S2. 6689.
United Kingdom

SECOND LIEUTENANT ERNEST PEACOCK
Royal Air Force
No. 8 Training Depot Station,
Died 26 May 1918
Buried or commemorated at
NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE (ST. JOHN'S WESTGATE AND ELSWICK) CEMETERY
R. U. 587.
United Kingdom

AIR MECHANIC 2ND CLASS
ERNEST HARROW
Service Number: 405442
Royal Air Force
24th Training Sqdn.
Died 11 June 1918
Buried or commemorated at
COVENTRY (LONDON ROAD) CEMETERY
198. 45.
United Kingdom
 

The last one may have nothing to do with an aircraft crash but probably still worth including in my list, just in case it was a work-related accident.  

Now, in fairness, I still get confused by the different designations in use, such as 8 TS and 8 TDS.  The latter makes me think of an actual airfield as opposed to a Training Squadron.  However, I'm assuming both these deaths relate to my original question.  If so, it seems there's little consistency across the various records....which isn't all that surprising.  

Hi

According to 'Airmen Died in the Great War 1914-1918' (DVD-ROM), WESTCOTT died of Meningitis, PEACOCK killed whilst flying in Camel D8131, HARROW was unknown cause, most likely probably of some illness.

Mike

[DavidOwen]

RA F Vault says Harrow was "accidentally killed" http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk

(Sorry link isn't direct put Harrow E in surname search box and Ernest will appear)

[DavidOwen]

He was mangled by a propeller - inquest report

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000989%2f19180614%2f125&stringtohighlight=ernest harrow

 

[Buffnut453]

Many thanks @MikeMeech and @DavidOwen.  The meningitis casualty can be excluded but Peacock definitely should be added to the accident-related casualties.  The info about Harrow makes two groundcrew killed by propellers during the period in question, plus a growing number of aircrew casualties (killed and injured).  

I appreciate all the inputs into this discussion.  I think I'll go back to the CWGC website and see if any other terms are used to identify the unit(s) involved.  

Edited 2 September , 2022 by Buffnut453

[Tawhiri]

1 hour ago, MikeMeech said:

PEACOCK killed whilst flying in Camel D8131

The accident card says he came out of a roll into a spin, and spun into the sea. It also states he was serving with 18 Training Squadron at Montrose, so the accident was not at Netheravon or Witney.

http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/peacock-e.-ernest

[Buffnut453]

Thanks @Tawhiri.  Your info further illustrates the inconsistency of the available data, as is so often the case in Great War research.  An incorrectly-documented record or a typo introduced when digitizing the record can wreak havoc when trying to gather anything more than individual records.  

[MikeMeech]

2 hours ago, Buffnut453 said:

Many thanks @MikeMeech and @DavidOwen.  The meningitis casualty can be excluded but Peacock definitely should be added to the accident-related casualties.  The info about Harrow makes two groundcrew killed by propellers during the period in question, plus a growing number of aircrew casualties (killed and injured).  

I appreciate all the inputs into this discussion.  I think I'll go back to the CWGC website and see if any other terms are used to identify the unit(s) involved.  

Hi

As an aside, I looked at accidental deaths in 'Airmen Died' (275 listed), in the first 100, 24 were listed as being struck by propellers, another 4 were struck by aircraft (one in his tent at the time).  It does show the dangers of being on an airfield near aircraft.

Mike

[Moonraker]

Rod Priddle, Wings over Wiltshire, mentions Lt H P Freeman and 2nd Lt Claude Eugene Rooke being killed at Netheravon on January 21, 1918, after the pilot lost control of a FE2b in a spinning nose-dive; he'd completed only 3.5 hours of solo flying.

And 2nd Lt Joseph J Daly of New York (but in the RAF) and Major Benjamin S Jordan NZEF were killed when their DH6 C6518 crashed at Codford on May 24. "Having completed a loop and a drive to 1000ft, the machine on pulling out. began to break up. Damage included the collapse of the port outer wings. Before the crash site could be secured, parts of the wreckage disappeared so that, when the accident investigators arrived, they were unable to conduct a conclusive examination. Daly was buried at Figheldean,  Jordan at Codford St Mary - he was second-in-command of the New Zealand Command Depot at Codford.

A précis of a coroner's report:  Ashton Morgan and William Rowan, Netheravon, February 8, 1918 [date of inquest]:

Second-Lieutenant Ashton Morgan, and Flight-Sergeant William Bowen, both of the Artillery Co-operation Squadron, were killed when trying to land at Netheravon after flying back from Hindon, where they and their aeroplane had spent the night. A military court of enquiry concluded that the machine was weakened by excessive exposure to t— during the night and that the wings folded in the —-, the aeroplane became uncontrollable and crashed to the ground. Captain Foster said he was near the Regimental Institute at Netheravon when he saw the aeroplane nearly 700 yards away, and 250 yards up. He saw the left wing double up, and the machine came down. Some machines would stand bad weather, but others would not. First Air Mechanic Harris said he was detailed to guard the aeroplane during the night at Hindon, and in the morning took two hours in going over it. The controls were in order and the machine was in flying condition. Verdict: accidental death. [The two omitted words were printing errors and cannot be read.)

Edited 2 September , 2022 by Moonraker

[Buffnut453]

Thanks for those additional inputs which add to my body of evidence.  I'm rather surprised at the detail from the Freeman/Rooke accident that the pilot only had 3.5 hrs of solo flying.  Other records indicate they belonged to 192 (Night) TS.  Posting such an inexperienced pilot to a Night TS, even if they accident happened in daytime, seems odd to me. 

Does anyone have details of the accident in which 2Lt Norman Reeves Scully was injured on 8 June 1918?  One of my relatives also flew that specific airframe on that very date.  Scully's service record indicates he was hospitalized in the 3rd Southern General Hospital, Oxford after the accident, so it was probably a pretty serious crash.  

Edited 6 September , 2022 by Buffnut453

[Tawhiri]

According to the incident casualty card he stalled and nosedived into the ground while flying Bristol F.2b Fighter C4717. There's more detail on the back of the first card, which is the incident casualty card, the second is the casualty card for the person.

http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/scully-n.r.-norman-reeves

http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/7000257732-scully-n.r.-norman-reeves

[Buffnut453]

Brilliant!  Many thanks Tawhiri.  His Service Record states he was seriously injured and, if his Record is complete, that he remained in hospital until his discharge in early 1919.  

Looks like I need to scour the RAFM Story Vault for additional info on the other non-fatal accidents identified in this thread.  

[Tawhiri]

13 hours ago, Buffnut453 said:

His Service Record states he was seriously injured and, if his Record is complete, that he remained in hospital until his discharge in early 1919.

In spite of this he looks to have lived a long life. The death of a Norman Reeves Scully, born 30 May 1899, was registered in the first quarter of 1980 in Wandsworth, London, England. According to the 1911 Ireland census he was born in County Wicklow, Ireland, and was living in Blessington, Wicklow, Ireland with his family at the time. Also a possible marriage in the second quarter of 1921 to a Hilda Robinson in Chorlton, Lancashire, England. Ancestry is throwing up a Norman Reeves Scully listed in their UK, City and County Directories, 1766 - 1946 collection as living in Lancashire, England, which would seem to fit with this marriage. Unfortunately I no longer have access to the full version of Ancestry so can't narrow it down to a specific location or a particular date range.

Edited 7 September , 2022 by Tawhiri

[Buffnut453]

6 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

In spite of this he looks to have lived a long life. The death of a Norman Reeves Scully, born 30 May 1899, was registered in the first quarter of 1980 in Wandsworth, London, England. Also a possible marriage in the second quarter of 1921 to a Hilda Robinson in Chorlton, Lancashire, England.

Agreed.  Seems he (eventually) had a lucky escape.  I, too, saw the connections to Lancashire as well as his death in London.