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Remembered Today:

2nd King's Own Scottish Borderers


Just A Glesga Keelie

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Hi i am looking for some help if possible ? can anyone of you good lot show me on a map the position of the 2nd King's Own Scottish Borderers on the 18th March 1915 if it's of no trouble to you ? 

Kind regards

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According to the War Diary 03/03/1915 The Bn relieved 2 KOYLI in Sector C (Ypres) and on 04/03/1915 Lt Broadway was shot mending wire in Trench 35.

The War Diary of 2 West Riding (also in 13 Infantry Brigade) has a Brigade Order dated 28/02/1915 that 2 KOYLI would take over Sector C Trenches 33 to 37 and there are maps of the Sectors attached to the Order

Sector C  - Courtesy TNA WO 95/1552. (Ancestry Piece 1552 p 78). 

All I have to do now is find where it is on another map. 

Brian

Sector C.jpg

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Apologies, I mis read the date. 

On 16/03/1915 the Bn relieved the Norfolks in Sector A. Unfortunately there is no map of Sector A with the others I referred to but I will find one somewhere. We can then find it on this map. WO 95/1552 (Ancestry p 123).

EDIT. The WD of the Norfolks records that on 06/03 they took over trenches SE of Ypres from the Cheshires. The Norfolks and Cheshires relieved each other until 16/03/1915. The WD of 1 Bn Cheshires records that on 04/03 the Bn marched to square 33 I between Ypres and St Eloi and took over trenches 23 A B and C, 24, 26, 27 and 28 from the Northumberland Fusiliers.

We are getting closer.

map.jpg

Edited by brianmorris547
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Thanks for the reply Brian, that would be fantastic if you could come up with something, i appreciate it very much

 

Kind regards

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Again this is from the WD of 2 West Riding. Courtesy TNA WO 95/1552

13 Infantry Brigade Order which shows that A Sector had trenches 24, 26, 27 and 28 and gives other dispositions for the Bn. (Ancestry p 88)

Other attached documents show that the Bn HQ for Sector A was at Chester Farm (Ancestry p 96). Chester Farm can be see above I 33 a.

Brian 

1552.jpg

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I remembered that I had posted and referred to some maps of the area on a thread "Bedford House" started by David Blanchard.

The first is from the WD of 8 Middlesex of 85 Infantry Brigade 28 Div. TNA WO 95/2279 (Ancestry p 449). 1:10 000 map of Verbrandenmolen dated 18/03/1915.

The Second is from the HQ General Staff 5 Div TNA WO 95/1512 (Ancestry p 389). 1:10 000 Verbrandenmolen showing the Front Line with Trench numbers.

The third is also from WO 95/1512 (Ancestry p 393) 1:10 000 Voormzeele showing the HQs for Sectors A, B and D.

Brian

2279.jpg

1512 p389.jpg

1512 p393.jpg

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  • 2 weeks later...

Brian, that is absolutely fantastic, I can't thank you enough for that ! I will be going down there tomorrow to have a look.

I see looking at trenches 24, 26,27 & 28, they now run roughly through Palingbeek golf course and the nearest CWGC cemetery to there is Oak Dump....do you happen to know of any cemeteries that were around that golf course that were later moved to somewhere else ? or do you know somewhere i could find out that information ?

 

Thank you ever so much

 

Kind regards

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No, I can't help I'm afraid.

Brian

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Please see the attached started by David Blanchard last year. Bedford House played a role and David attached a picture of the cemetery. It is very close to where you are and is marked on the map.

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/294517-bedford-house-chateau-rosenthal-april-1915-different-places/#comment-3069395

Brian

001.JPG

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18 hours ago, Just A Glesga Keelie said:

I see looking at trenches 24, 26,27 & 28, they now run roughly through Palingbeek golf course and the nearest CWGC cemetery to there is Oak Dump....do you happen to know of any cemeteries that were around that golf course that were later moved to somewhere else ?

Elkhof Farm was a British cemetery nearby and quite some German ones.

These are the ones that I found but there might be more.

Luc.

image.png.e0b6f20be7033fb77fae44caf7173b92.png

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 13/09/2022 at 07:03, brianmorris547 said:

Please see the attached started by David Blanchard last year. Bedford House played a role and David attached a picture of the cemetery. It is very close to where you are and is marked on the map.

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/294517-bedford-house-chateau-rosenthal-april-1915-different-places/#comment-3069395

Brian

001.JPG

Thank you very much Brian I appreciate that very much

Cheers

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On 13/09/2022 at 08:35, LDT006 said:

Elkhof Farm was a British cemetery nearby and quite some German ones.

These are the ones that I found but there might be more.

Luc.

image.png.e0b6f20be7033fb77fae44caf7173b92.png

That is fantastic, is that your own "My Maps" on Google maps ? i'd be very interested if you could share it with me ? but if not i totally understand

Cheers

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On 12/09/2022 at 14:27, Just A Glesga Keelie said:

I see looking at trenches 24, 26,27 & 28, they now run roughly through Palingbeek golf course and the nearest CWGC cemetery to there is Oak Dump....do you happen to know of any cemeteries that were around that golf course that were later moved to somewhere else ? or do you know somewhere i could find out that information ?

 

Here are 3 fragments of the Body Density series maps that show cemeteries in the area. They will appear on TranchMapper in due course. Some of those shown were later concentrated elsewhere.

Howard

 

cem3.jpg

cem2.jpg

cem1.jpg

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9 hours ago, Howard said:

Here are 3 fragments of the Body Density series maps that show cemeteries in the area. They will appear on TranchMapper in due course. Some of those shown were later concentrated elsewhere.

Howard

 

cem3.jpg

cem2.jpg

cem1.jpg

Thank you very much for that Howard, appreciate it 

 

Kind regards

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  • 1 month later...
On 12/09/2022 at 14:27, Just A Glesga Keelie said:

Brian, that is absolutely fantastic, I can't thank you enough for that ! I will be going down there tomorrow to have a look.

I see looking at trenches 24, 26,27 & 28, they now run roughly through Palingbeek golf course and the nearest CWGC cemetery to there is Oak Dump....do you happen to know of any cemeteries that were around that golf course that were later moved to somewhere else ? or do you know somewhere i could find out that information ?

 

Thank you ever so much

 

Kind regards

I think the temporary Cemetery your looking for was La Chapelle Farm at Palingbeek. 

Nothing there now but it's in the area of Langoed, Palingbeek just off the Vaarstraat.. 

Edited by Curlew1919
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La Chapelle Farm was at 28.I.33.b.3.9 and is also marked on the first of Howard's maps. This location is more to the north of the golf course.

It was concentrated to Hooge Crater:
LA CHAPELLE FARM, ZILLEBEKE, between Chester Farm and Blauwepoort Farm, where 17 soldiers from the United Kingdom were buried in February and March 1915.

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Your half right checked the co-ordinates again on a maps checker whatsit and 28.1.33.b.3.9 shows up today as:

Bezoekerscentrum De Palingbeek.. 

Roughly translated: Visitor Centre, Palingbeek, Ypres, Belgium

Which is next door to Landgoed, Palingbeek on the Vaarstraat Road.. 

So under the grounds of the Visitor Centre, Palingbeek was originally La Chapelle Farm Cemetery (In there back courtyard) 

Wonder if I ask them nicely they might do a bit digging in there back courtyard? to see if they can find my great uncle Frankie Monaghan and 11 other soldiers buried in February 1915

The 12 soldiers are commemorated on a memorial to La Chapelle Farm Cemetery erected in 1923 at Hooge Crater Cemetery a couple of miles away. 

I wonder why that memorial was not erected in Chester Farm Cemetery? which is a helluva lot nearer than Hooge Crater Cemetery??? 

Edited by Curlew1919
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ps the memorial in Hooge Crater Cemetery to the 12 soldiers from La Chapelle Farm is a Duhallow. 

It comprises of 12 headstones and a memorial stone

Which means there are no bodies under the 12 headstones (they are just 12 individual memorials) 

The 12 lads remains are still scattered around the Vaarstraat near the Visitor Centre at Palingbeek.. 

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The description at Hooge Crater states that there were 17 soldiers buried at La Chapelle Farm.
At least 13 bodies were recovered from La Chapelle Farm and reburied at Hooge Crater, see document below. (I didn't check all documents to see if there are more than 13)
So only 4 bodies could not be found after the war.
12 have a special memorial there for a lost grave, this means that 8 of these are actually buried in row 21L at Hooge Crater.

So your great uncle Frankie Monaghan could very well be one of these 8 ...........

Hope this helps, Luc.

image.jpeg.24689ada87a3407c140f19a7f4e4c85a.jpeg

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No noo LDT006 I have not a clue what you posted

See my post above and read this letter from 23rd October 1923 from:

Imperial War Graves Commission.. literally out of the horses mouth

There's non so blind as those that can see...

image.jpeg

image.jpeg

Edited by Curlew1919
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The letter only says that the remains of Frankie Monaghan were not found at La Chapelle Farm, it doesn't state that no remains were found there.

The army/IWGC document that I posted above proves that at least 13 bodies were found at La Chapelle Farm and reburied at Hooge Crater.

Please explain what you don't understand from my post above.

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"To the memory of these 12 soldiers killed in action in 1915. And buried at the time at La Chapelle Farm. Whose graves were destroyed in later battles" "Their glory shall not be blotted out"

12 headstones with 12 soldiers names on.. no grave no bodies just 12 headstone memorials...

1st Lincolns:

C. Purdue Cpl 6462

W. Hearn L/Cpl 7844

T. Wooster Pte 7489

P. Draper Pte 7888

J. Harman Pte 9403

B. Crompton Pte 9809

W. Kay Pte 9054

W. Carter Pte 5832

S. Parsons Pte 11942

1st Bedfords:

P. Marshall Pte 8565

1st Dorsets:

E. House Pte 6630

2nd Northumberland Fusiliers:

F. Monaghan Pte 3428

Edited by Curlew1919
correction
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2 minutes ago, LDT006 said:

The letter only says that the remains of Frankie Monaghan were not found at La Chapelle Farm, it doesn't state that no remains were found there.

The army/IWGC document that I posted above proves that at least 13 bodies were found at La Chapelle Farm and reburied at Hooge Crater.

Please explain what you don't understand from my post above.

Your talking about an entirely different thing.

I am talking about the memorial Duhallow of 12 granite headstones in Hooge Crater Military Cemetery to the 12 graves lost at la Chapelle Farm

There remains are still scattered were La Chapelle Farm was

Surely the letter cannot be more definitive from Imperial War Graves Commission and the schedule from CWGC?

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