Medal Roll

[Mark J]

Hello

What would be the reason for a recipient who was killed in action at Gallipoli and entitled to certain medals listed on the medal roll, those medals had not been issued please?

[GWF1967]

Just now, Mark J said:

Hello

What would be the reason for a recipient who was killed in action at Gallipoli and entitled to certain medals listed on the medal roll, those medals had not been issued please?

If you can post details of the man you are researching it will help others to help you. 
If the medals are shown as “returned” on his medal roll, there may have been a problem with delivery of the medals if the family had moved. 

[Mark J]

He is Petty Officer Charles Stubbs Thomas RNVR. A member of the Collingwood Battalion. Can’t see any mention of them returned and due to this I can’t get the medals from the MoD since they started sending them out last year.

[GWF1967]

How do you know the medals were never issued. Do you have paperwork or family lore to support this. 

[rolt968]

Was his serial number S Z/76?

[Mark J]

Someone looked at the roll on the National Archives and said they are noted as never issued. He was entitled to 1914-15 Star, British War and Victory medals. It would have been nice to have them to display and to pass on to my grand children.

Rolt968

Yes he is SZ/76

[GWF1967]

He served 8yrs R.N as a stoker, No.269969, giving a date of birth of 16/1/1883, before discharge due to "bad record"  21/12/1908.

He re-enlisted 26/9/1914, No, Z/76, giving his dob as 23/5/1885, his occupation as a fisherman, and next of kin as his wife, living at 3 Dagmar St, Worthing.

 There is no entry against his name in the "how disposed of" column. 

Edited 25 August , 2022 by GWF1967

[Mark J]

Thank GWF1967. Yes I’m guessing he had had enough of Navy life and his conduct went downhill at the end. About that time he became a father for the first time, my grandmother. I know he lied about his age to enlist as a stoker, he was too young by about 18 months.

He got promoted 3 times on re-enlisting for WW1. Thankfully I had been told about him by my mother, who knew very little, or he would have been forgotten. I won’t allow that.

[GWF1967]

Perhaps one of the Royal Naval experts,  @KizmeRD, @RNCVR @MerchantOldSalt   may be ale to offer further help regarding the issue of his medals. 

Edited 25 August , 2022 by GWF1967

[Keith_history_buff]

Was it the case that the Naval rating, or their next of kin, were supposed to apply to the Admiralty for the medals, unlike the War Office that issued medals to the other ranks of the British Army? 

[Mark J]

I expect claiming medals of your deceased husband was low down on the priority to do list of a new widow.

Thank you all for your replies.

[RNCVR]

The RN medal roll(ADM 171) will show the disposition of his medals. If the recipient or anyone else received them.  I don't know if this might be available online. 

@horatio2 will know how to access the roll.

Edited 25 August , 2022 by RNCVR

[Gunner 87]

2 hours ago, RNCVR said:

The RN medal roll(ADM 171) will show the disposition of his medals. If the recipient or anyone else received them.  I don't know if this might be available online. 

@horatio2 will know how to access the roll.

Hello. This is the RN Medal Roll RNCVR refers to, ADM 171/129. It appears to show Charles' Star, Victory Medal and British War Medal were not served. I have added the recipients either side where the medals were served on the sailor. 

[Mark J]

Thank you.

[Keith_history_buff]

This ties in with two comments on the forum, and info from three primary source documents too,

 

  

On 22/09/2020 at 22:39, horatio2 said:

The Admiralty Medal Roll shows that Francis George Parker F..2358 was entitled to a trio of medals but he never claimed them and theyr were not issued. Admiralty medals had to be claimed or they were not issued. Since he never put in a claim the roll does not have any annotation of V and BWM being issued by the Air Ministry.

 

  

On 29/05/2012 at 14:17, John Morcombe said:

One must bear in mind that the Admiralty did NOT issue medals automatically, as the War Office did for their Other Ranks only. The 1914 Stars for Naval recipients were all marked up & ready for issue in January 1919, but one had to claim, so whilst the majority were issued in 1919-20, many stars sat on a shelf for 15 years, after which time 426 unclaimed 1914 Stars were returned to the Royal Mint for destruction. Sod's Law dictates that no sooner had this occurred, than several claims were received & duplicate 1914 Stars had to be issued.

Naval 1914-15 Stars were first available in 1920 & the BWM & Victory in 1921. Separate issues are recorded for serving Ratings, some of whom would first receive their 1914-15 Star, then later the BWM & Vic. If one waited until 1922 to claim, the issue should have been of all three medals together.

 

[Keith_history_buff]

Given there is no evidence that an attempt was made to deliver the medals, I do not believe you would be able to make a medal reissue claim to the MOD Medal Office.

What I have seen others do is to buy three reproduction medals, and to frame them with an army medal index card or a photo, as a tribute to a family member who died during WW1. 

[Keith_history_buff]

The three primary sources:

 

Admiralty Order No. 4045 dated 24 December 1918. 
'4. Provided the claims are approved by the Admiralty, and subject to the limitations in clause 55, the [1914-15] star will be granted'

Admiralty Order 3973/19 – 10 December 1919
'3. Provided the claims are approved by the Admiralty, the [British War] medal will be granted'

Admiralty Order 3974/19 – 10 December 1919
'3. Provided the claims are approved by the Admiralty, the [Victory] medal will be granted'

[Mark J]

Hi Keith_history_buff

Thank you for your posts, they have answered my questions.

I will get a reproduction medal set made for display. 

[Keith_history_buff]

Glad to read that the comments and the reproduction of the Admiralty medal roll have answered your questions, and one of mine too.

I'd argue this is the most apt quote in relation to this particular thread.
  

On 28/11/2016 at 08:47, horatio2 said:

The Admiralty Medal Rolls show quite clearly who claimed the medals and to whom they were issued. Usually the entry is 'S' (Self) but various relatives of the deceased also claimed (father (Fr), mother (Mr), etc, and various types of legal legatee. Also evident are large numbers who are shown as not claimed and, therefore, not issued, as well as those who forfeited their medal through, for example, desertion.