1913 Remington Bayonet

[Mick M]

Just added this as a first to my collection...I think the date code is 2 17 but the 7 if so is very faint.

The reverse side has markings but best way to clean up first please. And can I use horse saddle wax to invigorate the leather, (only because I have some!) If not is it best left?

The edge is nicely blunt and that's how I would like to keep it, apart from some tiny chips all on one side as if its been used to hack at something, will a light touch with an oilstone remove them or best left alone?

Button and locking mechanism is sized is it OK to use penetrating oil?

 

This is a first for me and don't want to make any silly mistakes out of ignorance.

Edited 23 August , 2022 by Mick M
Spelling correction.

[Dave66]

Hello Mick,

I’d use some very fine wire wool and penetrating oil to do a basic clean, unstick the catch but that’s as far as I’d go…it’s not the best condition but still a nice piece of history. The scabbard doesn’t go with it, (that one night be from an 1887 pattern but not too sure) and the frog is a broken 1939 pattern…the two straps should go over the locket.

Might be worth having a browse through previous threads for P1907 and P1913’s, as they contain a wealth of information and advice. You are a stones throw from me, the flea is on at the three counties on Monday so you may find an odd old scabbard there, they sometimes turn up.

Dave.

 

[Mick M]

7 minutes ago, Dave66 said:

Hello Mick,

I’d use some very fine wire wool and penetrating oil to do a basic clean, unstick the catch but that’s as far as I’d go…it’s not the best condition but still a nice piece of history. The scabbard doesn’t go with it, (that one night be from an 1887 pattern but not too sure) and the frog is a broken 1939 pattern…the two straps should go over the locket.

Might be worth having a browse through previous threads for P1907 and P1913’s, as they contain a wealth of information and advice. You are a stones throw from me, the flea is on at the three counties on Monday so you may find an odd old scabbard there, they sometimes turn up.

Dave.

 

Brilliant thanks,

Now that's Monday catered for!

[AndyBsk]

I believe the pommel was hammered so question remains that would be functional even after oiling of that area.

[JMB1943]

Crown/ C5 /A on the blade near the cross-guard is the stamp of the inspector who was sent to A(merica) from the RSAF, Enfield.

Regards,

JMB

EDIT: Use of light oil and fine wire wool on the flats near the cross guard should bring up more stamps.

[Mick M]

1 hour ago, AndyBsk said:

I believe the pommel was hammered so question remains that would be functional even after oiling of that area.

Yes, anything this old would be questionable if it could be recovered anyway. There must be a spring and if that has lost all memory it wouldn't work. I just don't want to touch it if I will make it worse...thank you.

[Mick M]

1 hour ago, JMB1943 said:

Crown/ C5 /A on the blade near the cross-guard is the stamp of the inspector who was sent to A(merica) from the RSAF, Enfield.

Regards,

JMB

EDIT: Use of light oil and fine wire wool on the flats near the cross guard should bring up more stamps.

Thank you,

As it was made in USA did the American expeditionary force get equipped with the same? (Excuse my zero knowledge)

[peregrinvs]

Some 1913 Pattern bayonets were adopted by the US military and have US property markings on them as they would fit on the US Model 1917 rifle. (Essentially a 1914 Pattern Enfield rifle re-chambered for US 30.06 ammunition)

Yours doesn’t have US markings, so it probably didn’t see US service. The presence of the leather 1939 Pattern frog very firmly suggests WWII Home Guard use.

[shippingsteel]

The most interesting part for me is the scabbard, which appears to be for a Turkish M1890 bayonet ... suggested by the decorative locket and especially the squarish shape of the stud. Scabbard looks to be minus the lower chape portion.

As for freeing up the locking mechanism on the bayonet resting the end upside down for a day in some penetrating fluid or even diesel fuel should help unseize it. Gentle pressure applied in a suitably padded vice can also provide assistance ... failing that, a wooden mallet swung freely.!!

Cheers, SS

[AndyBsk]

Yes this is right, probably a turkish M1890 scabbard, the pommel is hammered,clearly visible on borders,  so its probably no way to moving the press button,even coat in diesel or WD40. 

[trajan]

I have seen this P.1907 / P.1913 pairing with an Ottoman scabbard once before, here in Turkey.

Julian

[Mick M]

15 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

The most interesting part for me is the scabbard, which appears to be for a Turkish M1890 bayonet ... suggested by the decorative locket and especially the squarish shape of the stud. Scabbard looks to be minus the lower chape portion.

As for freeing up the locking mechanism on the bayonet resting the end upside down for a day in some penetrating fluid or even diesel fuel should help unseize it. Gentle pressure applied in a suitably padded vice can also provide assistance ... failing that, a wooden mallet swung freely.!!

Cheers, SS

Brilliant thanks....I've got a BSA service tool in the box!

[Mick M]

Thanks, is there a possibility the WW2 frog was added by the Home guard?

[peregrinvs]

Very probably. 1913 Pattern and Model 1917 bayonets are frequently found in the UK attached to 1939 Pattern frogs. The pair would have been mostly hung on a leather 1903 Pattern belt in Home Guard service.

Edit. Although that would have been with a 1907 Pattern / 1913 Pattern / Model 1917 scabbard. I have no idea how it ended up with a Turkish one.

Edited 24 August , 2022 by peregrinvs

[Dave66]

Mick,

there’s a scabbard on its own popped up on eBay, it would suit yours quite well, the last few I’ve seen have done good money and fetched over £50, but might be worth having a punt or at least watching to give you an idea.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/275433307269?hash=item40211abc85:g:lYQAAOSwSdZjBe7-&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoKbvhviNMQ8u84XZIf9SnpTeaCUREwZlRYSq9D4XI4lG5O1sF6qBA7tDLgoCNir5e5d9OEqXCiFiSo%2Bamnv6D%2FB7Bq3BhgJPiN6EBs3F503w%2FgjIAT7io%2FuoWzlihzhKH2nvHBp9Ozwi%2BL7IVII1kClzwtCb4VCOSBgdOxns6f0BVC9hZDhDVEXcGGl9cWOTKejwokzqNL7xlbtKWohSsYM%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR76TjpLaYA

Dave.

Edited 24 August , 2022 by Dave66

[Mick M]

3 hours ago, Dave66 said:

Mick,

there’s a scabbard on its own popped up on eBay, it would suit yours quite well, the last few I’ve seen have done good money and fetched over £50, but might be worth having a punt or at least watching to give you an idea.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/275433307269?hash=item40211abc85:g:lYQAAOSwSdZjBe7-&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoKbvhviNMQ8u84XZIf9SnpTeaCUREwZlRYSq9D4XI4lG5O1sF6qBA7tDLgoCNir5e5d9OEqXCiFiSo%2Bamnv6D%2FB7Bq3BhgJPiN6EBs3F503w%2FgjIAT7io%2FuoWzlihzhKH2nvHBp9Ozwi%2BL7IVII1kClzwtCb4VCOSBgdOxns6f0BVC9hZDhDVEXcGGl9cWOTKejwokzqNL7xlbtKWohSsYM%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR76TjpLaYA

Dave.

Thanks I will

 

 

3 hours ago, Dave66 said:

Mick,

there’s a scabbard on its own popped up on eBay, it would suit yours quite well, the last few I’ve seen have done good money and fetched over £50, but might be worth having a punt or at least watching to give you an idea.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/275433307269?hash=item40211abc85:g:lYQAAOSwSdZjBe7-&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoKbvhviNMQ8u84XZIf9SnpTeaCUREwZlRYSq9D4XI4lG5O1sF6qBA7tDLgoCNir5e5d9OEqXCiFiSo%2Bamnv6D%2FB7Bq3BhgJPiN6EBs3F503w%2FgjIAT7io%2FuoWzlihzhKH2nvHBp9Ozwi%2BL7IVII1kClzwtCb4VCOSBgdOxns6f0BVC9hZDhDVEXcGGl9cWOTKejwokzqNL7xlbtKWohSsYM%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR76TjpLaYA

Dave.

 

3 hours ago, peregrinvs said:

Very probably. 1913 Pattern and Model 1917 bayonets are frequently found in the UK attached to 1939 Pattern frogs. The pair would have been mostly hung on a leather 1903 Pattern belt in Home Guard service.

Edit. Although that would have been with a 1907 Pattern / 1913 Pattern / Model 1917 scabbard. I have no idea how it ended up with a Turkish one.

Thanks

[peregrinvs]

10 hours ago, Dave66 said:

there’s a scabbard on its own popped up on eBay, it would suit yours quite well, the last few I’ve seen have done good money and fetched over £50, but might be worth having a punt or at least watching to give you an idea.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/275433307269?hash=item40211abc85:g:lYQAAOSwSdZjBe7-&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoKbvhviNMQ8u84XZIf9SnpTeaCUREwZlRYSq9D4XI4lG5O1sF6qBA7tDLgoCNir5e5d9OEqXCiFiSo%2Bamnv6D%2FB7Bq3BhgJPiN6EBs3F503w%2FgjIAT7io%2FuoWzlihzhKH2nvHBp9Ozwi%2BL7IVII1kClzwtCb4VCOSBgdOxns6f0BVC9hZDhDVEXcGGl9cWOTKejwokzqNL7xlbtKWohSsYM%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR76TjpLaYA

The same seller - Spandau Militaria - currently has three P13 / P07 type scabbards for sale on their website for £38 each.

[Mick M]

11 hours ago, peregrinvs said:

The same seller - Spandau Militaria - currently has three P13 / P07 type scabbards for sale on their website for £38 each.

Thanks I will take a look, I've just been out bid on ebay at £40 for one...I'm rather excited now because my scabbard is wrong I'm going to have to but a bayonet to fit it, that's how collections start!

[Mick M]

It's starting to give up its secrets.

Under 1913 we have a 2 and 1 on its own. The 1 is fainter than the 2 but I can't see any sign of a second number...

The other side (pic) has a crown with C5 under and a A under that.

       Crown

          C5

            A

Under that a crown and a cross, I think that's a bend test....

[AndyBsk]

There is X form bend test on right side of lower crown proof ??

[Dave66]

27 minutes ago, Mick M said:

Thanks I will take a look, I've just been out bid on ebay at £40 for one...I'm rather excited now because my scabbard is wrong I'm going to have to but a bayonet to fit it, that's how collections start!

Sounds like you’ve got the bug, catching ain’t it😀👍.

keep an eye on this chap, turns them over quite quickly but will give you a good idea of retail prices….https://bayonetman.com/shop.php

Dave.

[Mick M]

Just now, Dave66 said:

Sounds like you’ve got the bug, catching ain’t it😀👍.

keep an eye on this chap, turns them over quite quickly but will give you a good idea of retail prices….https://bayonetman.com/shop.php

Dave.

Thanks to giving me a good steer on what I need to learn...

5 minutes ago, AndyBsk said:

There is X form bend test on right side of lower crown proof ??

It's not clear in my pic but with the eye that's what it looks like, a bend test mark...Still cleaning slowly though...

[peregrinvs]

13 hours ago, Mick M said:

Thanks I will take a look, I've just been out bid on ebay at £40 for one...I'm rather excited now because my scabbard is wrong I'm going to have to but a bayonet to fit it, that's how collections start!

The good news there is that it’s usually easier to find a scabbard-less bayonet than it is to find a separate scabbard for one.

[Mick M]

1 hour ago, peregrinvs said:

The good news there is that it’s usually easier to find a scabbard-less bayonet than it is to find a separate scabbard for one.

Bought one at £38 plus 6 p and p...and none of the fuss with ebay, so I'm dead happy. Hopefully my luck will hold out for a tip to the Ottoman scabbard and something to fill it. The reamington is looking nice now with a good clean I'm going to take out some ugly chips in the blade where its been used to chop something and that's it.

Thanks again.

[Mick M]

Update...

Thank you again. The Remington cleaned nicely and chips in the edge removed sharpening and it now has its own scabbard.

Would my Ottoman scabbard be right for the Turkish bayonet in the picture and would it be a WW1 item?