Army schools

[Kevin Mears]

Can anyone tell me anything about the Army Schools at Stratford on Avon and Maidenhead between 1907 and 1910 please.

As always, any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Kevin Mears 

[Coldstreamer]

Kevin, you will need to put some sort of link to do with World War I or you might get the thread deleted. Was it to do with a particular World War I soldier for example ?

[Kevin Mears]

Hi.

Yes it is in connection with Dudley Ralph Turnbull who went on to Sandhurst and was killed in the Great War.

[FROGSMILE]

On 21/08/2022 at 20:34, Kevin Mears said:

Can anyone tell me anything about the Army Schools at Stratford on Avon and Maidenhead between 1907 and 1910 please.

As always, any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Kevin Mears 

Kevin there were only three schools formally aligned with the Army via funding from government, and all were associated with the children of other ranks (i.e. below commissioned officer):

1.  The Duke of York’s Royal Military School - Chelsea (then Dover). 

2.  The Royal Hibernian Military School - Dublin.

3.  Queen Victoria School - Dunblane.

 All three schools were originally intended for the orphans of servicemen and only they could be categorised as “Army schools”.

There were some others funded by private donations such as:

1. Gordon Boys School - Woking.

2. Royal Soldiers Daughters School - Hampstead.

In accordance with Britain’s rigidly demarcated social stratas there were also a series of ‘public schools’ (actually private and fee paying) that were ranked rather like universities, based on their cost (and facilities), social exclusivity, and reputations.  Two of these schools went to great lengths to be sympathetic to military families and grant them favourable terms, as well as prolific sporting facilities and a curriculum that would meticulously prepare their students for a military career (this was especially so at Wellington):

1.  Wellington College - Crowthorne, Berks.

2.  Haileybury College - Hertford Heath.

In addition following the Haldane Reforms of 1908, as part of a concerted effort to build up a reserve of manpower for any future conflict, the War Office provided grants to all universities and colleges who applied to receive funding in support of cadet corps at their establishments**.  This became known as the Officer Training Corps (OTC) and was divided in two, a senior division incorporating the universities and a junior division encompassing the colleges#.

All these cadet corps were subsidised to provide modern khaki uniforms and loaned cadet rifles’ (actually obsolescent carbines that fired standard service ammunition) from government reserve stocks.

 I suspect that what you have described as “Army schools” are actually minor public schools with uniformed OTC at Stratford upon Avon and Maidenhead.

**some had already been in existence since at least the 2nd Anglo/Boer War.  Even with the War Office grants parents were obliged to pay a membership subscription.

#much later retitled the Combined Cadet Force (CCF).  Image below shows cadets at Chipping Camden [Grammar] School - I wonder how many of the poor little sods survived - most would have become junior officers with notoriously short odds for making it through.

NB.  See also: https://archive.org/stream/otcgreatwar00haig/otcgreatwar00haig_djvu.txt

Edited 19 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

The school for Stratford upon Avon might well relate to the King Edward VI School which was the alma mater of William Shakespeare and furnished a junior division OTC during WW1.

Edited 4 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

Maidenhead is more difficult given its combination within the Royal Borough of Windsor and Maidenhead, which includes in its area the world famous Eton College and its long standing OTC (now CCF).  In addition there was a small Maidenhead College (very minor public school subsequently closed and with fragmented records), and the surviving Cordwalles School (now St Piruns), to mention the two that I could find.  There may be others.

Can you provide any more context? 
 

 

Edited 22 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

Is anyone familiar with public schools in the Maidenhead area during WW1?

[rolt968]

Not a lot of help but:

Westlake lists  1 and 2 Cadet Companies, 4 Royal Berkshire Regiment; Redesignated Maidenhead Companies, 4 Royal Berkshire Regiment. (Westlake: Territorial Force Cadet Units 1910-1922)

He also lists 3 Cadet Battalion, Royal Warickshire Regiment as having absorbed a cadet unit at King Edward VI School, Stratfard on Avon).

RM

Edited 22 August , 2022 by rolt968

[FROGSMILE]

18 hours ago, rolt968 said:

Not a lot of help but:

Westlake lists  1 and 2 Cadet Companies, 4 Royal Berkshire Regiment; Redesignated Maidenhead Companies, 4 Royal Berkshire Regiment. (Westlake: Territorial Force Cadet Units 1910-1922)

He also lists 3 Cadet Battalion, Royal Warickshire Regiment as having absorbed a cadet unit at King Edward VI School, Stratfard on Avon).

RM

Thanks RM, all grist to the mill.  The difficulty is separating the Junior Division OTC units like that at the Edward VI school, from those cadet units that aren’t aligned with a school, or that are aligned with a state school that didn’t then qualify as an OTC.

Edited 23 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[rolt968]

4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thanks RM, all grist to the mill.  The difficulty is separating the Junior Division OTC units like that at the Edward VI school, from those cadet units that aren’t aligned with a school or that are aligned with a state school that didn’t then qualify as an OTC.

It's a bit odd. If I remember rightly there were odd schools (one in Glasgow, I think) which decided to stay as affilliated cadet units rather that become units of the junior OTC.

[FROGSMILE]

18 hours ago, rolt968 said:

It's a bit odd. If I remember rightly there were odd schools (one in Glasgow, I think) which decided to stay as affilliated cadet units rather that become units of the junior OTC.

Yes I understand it was indeed possible to choose status, presumably with pros and cons.  I read somewhere that affiliation to the OTC came with terms and conditions, including for schoolmasters who became involved, that would not have sat well with the ultra religious masters such as Quakers.  @Kevin Mearshave none of these responses been any use (or interest) to you?

Edited 23 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Kevin Mears]

Hi all.

Sorry for being missing for a while, real life intervened. Thanks for your help . Context is that the Officer I am researching spent three years at the two military schools named. The implication seems to be that they were military schools rather than OTC's. If it helps, his father was a Major in the DCLI at the time.

Thanks again.

Kevin Mears

Edited 4 September , 2022 by Kevin Mears

[FROGSMILE]

26 minutes ago, Kevin Mears said:

Hi all.

Sorry for being missing for a while, real life intervened. Thanks for your help . Context is that the Officer I am researching spent three years at the two military schools named. The implication seems to be that they were military schools rather than OTC's. If it helps, his father was a Major in the DCLI at the time.

Thanks again.

Kevin Mears

As I have tried to explain above there were no specifically “military schools” other than those few that I’ve mentioned.  The schools in Stratford upon Avon and Maidenhead are likely though to have had cadet corps that at the time were categorised as Junior Division Officer Training Corps, an organisation that between the two world wars was retitled as the Combined Cadet Force.

The difference between a true military school and a school that maintained a cadet corps is that the former wore military uniform all of the time, had a significant number of military staff and was organised on a military basis.  The schools concerned were owned and funded by the War Office (meaning they were indirectly sustained by the tax-payer). 

Schools with cadet corps were organised in the civilian style and wore civilian school uniforms, with usually just a single former soldier acting as the ‘drill instructor’ and the remaining staff with a quasi military role being schoolmasters holding a special category of commission.  The syllabus was a normal school syllabus, but with the addition of drill sessions in the evenings and at weekends when military uniform was worn (commonly drab khaki during the war and cut similarly, but not identically, to Army service dress).

For those schools registered with the War Office there was a cash grant, subsidised cloth for uniforms and access to cadet rifles (carbines) that could fire government supplied ammunition.  From 1916 onward the nation took on far more of a war footing and the school cadet corps became much more of a focus.  It is probably this military atmosphere that your source is recalling/referring to.

Both types of school generally had their own insignia comprising as a minimum cap badges, but sometimes including collar badges and shoulder titles, depending upon the relative wealth of the school and it’s students families.

Edited 4 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[MrEd]

I went to Gordon’s boys school, we had particular beef with wellington college in the rugby pitch….

 

I recall even when I was there (late 80’s) that the vast majority of kids were of service families. Doesn’t help with the original question but the military tradition carried on for many many decades 

[Keith_history_buff]

Quote

As I have tried to explain above there were no specifically “military schools” other than those few that I’ve mentioned.  The schools in Stratford upon Avon and Maidenhead are likely though to have had cadet corps that at the time were categorised as Junior Division Officer Training Corps, an organisation that between the two world wars was retitled as the Combined Cadet Force.

@Kevin Mearsit is still the same today with a lot of fee-paying schools. The pupils are there to be educated, not specifically to be trained as officers, and one of the extra-curricular activities is that the school has a Cadet Force body of young men. I researched a VC winner who attended Clifton College. He had no intention of doing anything other than working for his father and remaining a civilian, but he did participate in their Junior Division Officer Training Corps formation. He held the rank of Sergeant. He participated for two years, and obtained a pass in his "Certificate A" training. 

Clifton College have a Combined Cadet Force these days
https://www.cliftoncollege.com/ccf-field-days/

Here's another example of a Clifton College old boy who was in the  Junior Division Officer Training Corps at Clifton College. You can see that after studies at the University of Manchester, he went into industry.
https://www.reubique.com/johnson.htm

 

[MaureenE]

I wonder whether the  "Army Schools" could have been some type of cramming establishment which were not schools in the generally accepted sense, and could be quite small. Accordingly they may be difficult to research.

Some cramming establishments were run by Clergymen, but there   were other types  of proprietors.

See  End note 43, Chapter 6 " Lifelines for Clergymen" (no page numbers in  the book)  from The Rise of the English Prep School, by Donald Leinster-Mackay

"Many clergymen turned their rectories into cramming establishments for entry  into the army, navy, India Civil Service, Home Civil Service and the universities... A relatively late example of this development was Arreton Vicarage on the Isle of Wight where in 1900 the Rev J Black Hyland took in thirteen pupils to be taught by six resident tutors.

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=m9M7EAAAQBAJ&pg=PT74

The Wikipedia page Cram School https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cram_school has a link to the story "Owen Wingrave" by Henry James published 1893.

https://archive.org/details/wheeltimecollab00jamegoog/page/n156/mode/2up

One of the characters is Spencer Coyle who ..." was a professional "coach"; he prepared young men for the army, taking only three or four at a time..."

Maureen

 

Edited 5 September , 2022 by MaureenE

[FROGSMILE]

On 05/09/2022 at 05:03, MaureenE said:

I wonder whether the  "Army Schools" could have been some type of cramming establishment which were not schools in the generally accepted sense, and could be quite small. Accordingly they may be difficult to research.

Some cramming establishments were run by Clergymen, but there   were other types  of proprietors.

See  End note 43, Chapter 6 " Lifelines for Clergymen" (no page numbers in  the book)  from The Rise of the English Prep School, by Donald Leinster-Mackay

"Many clergymen turned their rectories into cramming establishments for entry  into the army, navy, India Civil Service, Home Civil Service and the universities... A relatively late example of this development was Arreton Vicarage on the Isle of Wight where in 1900 the Rev J Black Hyland took in thirteen pupils to be taught by six resident tutors.

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=m9M7EAAAQBAJ&pg=PT74

The Wikipedia page Cram School https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cram_school has a link to the story "Owen Wingrave" by Henry James published 1893.

https://archive.org/details/wheeltimecollab00jamegoog/page/n156/mode/2up

One of the characters is Spencer Coyle who ..." was a professional "coach"; he prepared young men for the army, taking only three or four at a time..."

Maureen

 

That’s a good thought Maureen.  It depends I think on the interpretation of the source as to what constituted a military school in their minds.  Some such crammers prepared students for taking the entrance examinations for the Royal Military Academy (Woolwich) and Royal Military College (Sandhurst), which were often a challenge for those not academically gifted.  They were usually quite small and if so didn’t have military uniform, and little if any traditional sporting opportunities, so their military context was mostly confined to studying languages (French, German, etc.), mathematics, and engineering (field works, etc.) that were together a standard part of the entrance examination.  On balance that doesn’t ostensibly seem to fit the context, but it will be interesting to see what the original poster thinks.  We haven’t really heard any specifics yet.   

Edited 19 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Kevin Mears]

The original poster is alive and well. Firstly thank you to everyone for their input.  As I have said I have it in (his) handwriting that he attended Wellington College followed by a period of three years at what he refers to as the Military Schools at Stratford and Maidenhead. If it was an OTC I would  have expected him to have said he was in the OTC at such and such a school. 

The concept of a cramming school is new to me and very interesting. My man appears to have scored very heavily at Sandhurst in the subjects of musketry, drill and riding. He did less well at more academic subjects. It appears unlikely that I will find out the schools he attended but as always with this forum every day is a school day and for that I am always grateful.

 

Regards,

Kevin Mears 

[FROGSMILE]

36 minutes ago, Kevin Mears said:

The original poster is alive and well. Firstly thank you to everyone for their input.  As I have said I have it in (his) handwriting that he attended Wellington College followed by a period of three years at what he refers to as the Military Schools at Stratford and Maidenhead. If it was an OTC I would  have expected him to have said he was in the OTC at such and such a school. 

The concept of a cramming school is new to me and very interesting. My man appears to have scored very heavily at Sandhurst in the subjects of musketry, drill and riding. He did less well at more academic subjects. It appears unlikely that I will find out the schools he attended but as always with this forum every day is a school day and for that I am always grateful.

 

Regards,

Kevin Mears 

Kevin that you had some writing was understood, as you had mentioned it.  It’s the actual precise wording that makes all the difference in understanding context, as opposed to hearsay.

Wellington College was the premier public school college for preparing boys for the British Army as a commissioned officer.  It was nationally renowned for that.  If he went to what he described as a “military” establishment after that then it would indeed have been a crammer of the sort that Maureen described.  It was a common sequence of events for those destined / planning for, an Army career.  This is exactly what I meant about understanding context. 

Edited 6 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Kevin Mears]

My apologies for any, unintended, obfuscation. So, he spent a further three years after Wellington cramming for Sandhurst. His determination was repaid with the award of a DSO and promotion to Lieutenant Colonel.

Thanks again everyone.

Regards,

Kevin Mears 

[FROGSMILE]

57 minutes ago, Kevin Mears said:

My apologies for any, unintended, obfuscation. So, he spent a further three years after Wellington cramming for Sandhurst. His determination was repaid with the award of a DSO and promotion to Lieutenant Colonel.

Thanks again everyone.

Regards,

Kevin Mears 

It wasn’t uncommon for those that wanted to pass the standard examination and gain entry via the most laudable method.  The entrance examination was known to be tough and there was something of an industry created of small crammers.  Entry to the civil service college was made similarly difficult from an academic perspective and there were similar crammers for aspirants there too.  Most young men (although not all) who wanted an Army career tended to be more interested in sport, hunting, polo, or riding point to point and few were very academic.  As a result a majority (over 50% if I recall correctly) of those entering gained entry by joining the Militia and spending a year at regimental duty there before taking a much easier entrance examination specifically for militia officers wishing to join the regular army.  This back door entry became very popular and many officers entered that way.  Your subject clearly wanted to take the more difficult but laudable, direct path, and crammed accordingly.

Edited 6 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Kevin Mears]

Thanks again. My admiration for Dudley has gone up another notch.

Regards,

Kevin Mears

 

[ianshuter]

I am also researching a Capt Frederick Terence Hastings MULLALY, Gurkha Rifles who is named on the Stratford on Avon Cemetery war memorial. I have found a note in a family tree that he attended "Army School in Stratford on Avon" but he is not named on the King Edward Grammar (KES) school memorial which you would expect if he was in their OTC.

He was the son of Maj-Gen Herbert Mullaly and he had two brothers who also died, one of whom is on the Cemetery WM.

If there was some sort of school there it would explain why there are so many men from all over England that are named on the Stratford on Avon Cemetery war memorial plaque but appear to have nothing to do with Stratford.

I am going to email KES to see if they have any information.

BTW I also recently discovered that there were two Wellington Colleges until 1921 when one became Wrekin College.

[ianshuter]

Update to the above:
I have just found that Frederick was a boarder at Holy Trinity (Church) School with his two brothers in 1901 and am now trying to explore the other names on the census of 1901 and 1911

[FROGSMILE]

Good luck with your continued research, it will be interesting and potentially ground breaking to discover which of the schools was the Army crammer for entry to Woolwich and Sandhurst.

Edited 25 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE