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Remembered Today:

H Grinter DCM MM


Pompey

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I don’t have any information to offer, but I’m finding this thread fascinating. If we assume the absence of evidence means his awards are spurious, it would not be the first or last time that the digitisation of historic records has caused old skeletons to fall out of closets.

Idle speculation: Perhaps it’s something to do with his mental health being affected by the trauma of losing his legs? Alternatively, perhaps he sincerely felt that the extent of his injuries meant that he was ‘as good as’ entitled to those awards? The story of the bicycle dive suggests he had a ‘showman’ streak to him and perhaps there’s a clue there?

Given the extent of his supposed awards, I would not be surprised at all if some of his contemporaries knew they weren’t kosher, but decided that letting sleeping dogs lie was the lesser of two evils.

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I’ve read this thread with interest too.

Of course we can’t place ourselves in the shoes of our ancestors but maybe those in the know thought that having lost both legs he’d done enough?

What point in calling him out?

It’s not the same as someone who claims service when they have none ( plenty of them about today!).
 

58 DM.

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5 hours ago, 58 Div Mule said:

Of course we can’t place ourselves in the shoes of our ancestors but maybe those in the know thought that having lost both legs he’d done enough?

What point in calling him out?

Especially if he was an effective speaker and fundraiser. As time went on they would also risk embarrassment and reputational damage to their organization if it got out.

The outrage among other WW1 veterans/medal holders would have been considerable if he was exposed. Any fallout would have been harder to deal with the longer it went on.

Being prominent in the 'Old Contemptibles' would have been easier for Grinter than a similar regimental role. I wonder if there are any obituaries from 1961?

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18 hours ago, Rockford said:

report in the Hull Daily Mail on 1st Oct 1919 in relation to Tottenham Fire Brigade taking on wounded servicemen that reads:

....One typical case that of Corporal Grinter, the famous old Surrey athlete and champion runner, who served with the Royal Sussex, and lost both his lege. He is sole survivor on the male side in his family. His father and two brothers were killed.

I cannot see evidence of his father or brothers being killed in WW1? https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/search-results/?Surname=grinter&Forename=&Initials=&ServiceNum=&Regiment=&WarSelect=1&CountryCommemoratedIn=null&Cemetery=&Unit=&Rank=&SecondaryRegiment=&AgeOfDeath=0&DateDeathFromDay=1&DateDeathFromMonth=January&DateDeathFromYear=&DateDeathToDay=1&DateDeathToMonth=January&DateDeathToYear=&DateOfDeath=&Honours=null&AdditionalInfo=&Page=2

His father Ernest was a RN seaman on HMS Warspite at the time of his marriage in Queenstown in February 1895. His father was James. Harold was born the following December.

An Ernest Grinter 7751 (brother?) died 28 Sept 1916 with the 5th Dorsets: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/787856/ernest-grinter/

 

 

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34 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said:

An Ernest Grinter 7751 (brother?) died 28 Sept 1916 with the 5th Dorsets: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/787856/ernest-grinter/

 

Hello

There is a an attestation form on Ancestry for this Ernest Grinter as a special reservist from August 1914, when he was 17 yrs and 8 months old.  His father is listed as George of Foxley Farm, Charmouth in Dorset, so this man is unlikely to be Harold's brother.

Best wishes

Brian

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14 hours ago, Rockford said:

There is a an attestation form on Ancestry for this Ernest Grinter as a special reservist from August 1914, when he was 17 yrs and 8 months old.  His father is listed as George of Foxley Farm, Charmouth in Dorset, so this man is unlikely to be Harold's brother.

Thanks Brian. It's sad that CWGC have no family details attached to him: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/787856/ernest-grinter/

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I guess it’s a case of ‘let he without sin cast the first stone’, - it won’t be me.

A man who served his country and suffered significantly as a result.

God bless him wherever he is.

58 DM.

 

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1 hour ago, 58 Div Mule said:

I guess it’s a case of ‘let he without sin cast the first stone’, - it won’t be me.

A man who served his country and suffered significantly as a result.

God bless him wherever he is.

58 DM.

 

Quite right too. I only hope that any living relatives the man may have did not get to read this thread. This has been nothing short of a character assassination of a man who served his country and suffered badly as a result. I find it hard to believe that a man so prominent in the veteran community could have pulled off such a deception. I hope you are all proven wrong.     Pete.

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We have been trying everything we can to prove him right, starting from the point of trying to find out where, when and how he won his awards. The evidence should be there.

He certainly used his prominent position in the 'Old Contemptibles' for the good of others. He was determined not to be an object of pity due to his injuries.

He seems to have been presented to HM Queen Mary in August 1918. The report confirms that he lost both his legs due to a shell, and mentions the Military Medal:

image.png

Edited by Ivor Anderson
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Found his marriage certificate for 11th August 1919 at Holy Trinity Tottenham. Occupation stated as engineer. Father confirmed as Ernest William Grinter (deceased).

image.png.0fecf10928de5cb25a67ba9c3ff5e7eb.png

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His father Ernest William Grinter was born 22 Feb 1867 at West Wittering, Sussex, parents George & Jane. He joined the RN in 1885. Service record here:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/399787:60522?tid=&pid=&queryId=867ab9c13c9b0e278b272fa3ce1c49ab&_phsrc=qzF1163&_phstart=successSource

He served on a great number of ships inc HMS Warspite (Jan 1894-Nov 1895), which matches his marriage cert. entry in early 1895. Invalided out in Dec 1916 'Dis of Nerves'.

This seems to be him buried in the Shoreditch/Newham area of London on 2 May 1918 (aged 51): https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/8805971:70845?tid=&pid=&queryId=c41590424d0e616cc7d4120779cccb5e&_phsrc=qzF1165&_phstart=successSource  So he did die during the war.

 

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James Harold Grinter (aged 5) and his mother Kate (aged 25, b. Ireland, 1876?) were living in Chichester, Sussex at the 1901 census (Father away in RN).

His mother, Kate was living at Bogner in Sussex in 1911 aged 35, servant in a hotel, born Waterford, Ireland.

Harold was boarding in Donnington, Berkshire in 1911 (aged 15, Born Queenstown, Cork): https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2352/images/rg14_06384_0041_03?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=5d15bb06389553abb8fa9b2d72f23e24&usePUB=true&_phsrc=qzF1192&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=44390294

image.png.4160716448ef642e3e56930a21fb223a.png

He was living as 5 Broadway Mansions, Brighton Rd, Worthing, Sussex in 1939. He was a telephone operator at Littlehampton Council Offices (Ancestry):

image.png.0b57c70ef99bcf80e359890ce0b9bebb.png

Harold was buried in Littlehampton Cemetery, W. Sussex on 21 Nov 1961 aged 66:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/36081:9041?tid=&pid=&queryId=40cd880feecfbb4f889c8dc8336853dc&_phsrc=qzF1168&_phstart=successSource

Edited by Ivor Anderson
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I think ‘character assassination’ is a little harsh. It has merely been pointed out that there seems to be no evidence that he was legitimately awarded those medals and so therefore - sadly - the balance of probability is that he wasn’t. But on the other hand, there is also no evidence so far that it was a conscious deception on his part. Unless proven otherwise, I am happy to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that for reasons now lost to history he sincerely believed that he had been awarded those medals. That he made a great personal sacrifice and was deserving of reward for his wartime and postwar activities isn’t in doubt.

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I have been following this thread with interest, as someone who lives in the local area in Sussex to where Harold lived and has an interest in The Royal Sussex Regiment.
Thanks for the burial information @Ivor Anderson I have contacted Arun Council, this morning to find the grave location and they have emailed me back all ready, with the location.  I will hopefully get there tomorrow.

I do find it hard to believe he would have got away with misrepresenting his medal entitlement, when he he is living in the county of his regiment and there would be lots of other Royal Sussex veterans around.  If he was living anywhere else in the country, nobody would probably notice.  I also can’t believe he would never have crossed paths with William Lushington Osborn, he was  Lt-Col 2nd Batt. Royal Sussex Regt from 1918-1919 and Hon. Col Royal Sussex Regt, 1926–41.  Obviously they were with the 2nd Batt at different times.  Osborn was involved with the British Legion in Chichester.  I know that this is a different organisation to the Old Contemptibles, but you are still both moving within veterans circles.  Osborn lived in Chichester after the war, just up the road from Rousillion Barracks, in Chichester the home of the Royal Sussex Regiment, so was in the area as well.

Mandy

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2 hours ago, peregrinvs said:

I think ‘character assassination’ is a little harsh. It has merely been pointed out that there seems to be no evidence that he was legitimately awarded those medals.

This comment accurately  reflects this well researched thread.

This forum is primarily for researching the Great War and it’s participants.

Facts and truth matter more than potentially hurt feelings or myths. 

Here’s to more research and uncovering the true stories of it.

Cheers,
Derek. 

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6 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

We have been trying everything we can to prove him right, starting from the point of trying to find out where, when and how he won his awards. The evidence should be there.

He certainly used his prominent position in the 'Old Contemptibles' for the good of others. He was determined not to be an object of pity due to his injuries.

I along with Ivor have always wanted the awards to Harold Grinter to be proven beyond doubt.  It started as a pure interest in finding more details of a brave man from a photograph in a book.  I still think he was a brave man who after the war made a difference to the lives of many through his charitable works and what a character!  I would have liked to have known him and the pure grit in walking again after having both legs amputated above the knee and still performing high dive acts is worth a movie in its own right.  

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Some of those who enlisted with him may have surviving service records (Ancestry):

image.png.d7eb9366404541ac17f234a1c2e1dce9.png

image.png

Adolphus Albert Bond 10037 got a SWB and became a PoW: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/1696769:1262?tid=&pid=&queryId=4b22b077e5b806f12b5678028b62ad5a&_phsrc=qzF1339&_phstart=successSource

Alfred Stephen Gorringe 10038 was wounded and got a SWB: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/268858:2456?tid=&pid=&queryId=3d1e8a94ba6e78883c774fd35307cb9a&_phsrc=qzF1343&_phstart=successSource

Edward Milton 10040 died of wounds in hospital 4 June 1915: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/659605/e-milton/

James Mackay 10041 was KIA 25 Jan 1915: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/853756/james-macdonald-cathcart-mackay/

Charles Pratt    10044 was KIA 25 Sept 1915: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/1767032/charles-pratt/

Edited by Ivor Anderson
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I have been reading this thread with some interest. Uncovered the following snippet from The 'John Bull' of 28 October 1922:

 

Screenshot 2022-08-26 233255.jpg

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I believe that this is the same man. Source: Reynold's Newspaper 29 March 1931:

 

Screenshot 2022-08-26 233926.jpg

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On 26/08/2022 at 10:18, mandy hall said:

I have contacted Arun Council, this morning to find the grave location and they have emailed me back all ready, with the location.  I will hopefully get there tomorrow.

It is interesting that he presented himself at the 'John Bull' to tell his story in 1922. The story shows that he was not afraid of a challenge.

It will be interesting to see if he has a headstone and what is on it. His wife's name on the 1939 register is different to that of his marriage in 1919.

It seems that his wife Ethel and 2 sons emigrated to Australia in Nov. 1947. Ethel seems to have died in South Australia on 2 April 1957.

Harold is very prominent in Sussex newspapers in the 1950s.

His DCM & MM were reported in an account of a parade of the Royal West Sussex Regt Old Comrades' Association in the Bogner Regis Observer on  15 July 1950.

There may be a photo with him in this account of the Old Contemptibles Association in November 1956:

image.png.5fa3c75f18519b5bb6bc640e279f5b52.png

Edited by Ivor Anderson
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3 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

There may be a photo with him in it in November 1956:

image.png.5fa3c75f18519b5bb6bc640e279f5b52.png

Hello

The photo at the top of the page is a external shot of the Remembrance Day service at the Littlehampton War Memorial.  Its too dark and grainy, and taken from too far away to see the details of anyone present.

The portrait in the middle of the page is of someone else and is part of another story.

The article that mentions Harold does not make any reference to medals, only to the loss of his legs at Mons in 1918.

It states that he had been chairman of the association for 22 years, and that the office of president had been specially created for him to recognise his service and contribution to the association's work.

Best wishes

Brian

 

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Thanks Brian. This 1950 account mentions the DCM & MM, but no photo (BNA):

image.png.92a669297798d48cb5716d4e4f58c87f.png

This research has proved both fascinating and disturbing. It shows the long term affects of the war on a badly wounded survivor. If Lt. Guy Compton DCM MM died in the same shelling that resulted in Harold losing both his legs, Harold may initially have felt that Guy was the lucky one. He probably felt that some others got gallantry medals for a lot less than he had been through. Perhaps he was recommended for one that did not materialize, or just felt that he should have got one. His Bn. seemed to be granted many MMs for actions during 1918, after he arrived home wounded. He made the best of what life had dealt him and, even if he did claim to have been awarded medals that he was not entitled to, he used his voluntary positions to support others. His performances seem to have brought joy to many. His immediate family may have had a different opinion.

Edited by Ivor Anderson
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