Help finding further military information about ancestor

[kathleenwalker]

Hello everyone! My father and I have been researching a particular ancestor for a while now, but we keep finding ourselves running into walls. A lot of our issues seem to sprout from just... not knowing enough about how war records work or being UTD on our specific history. We'd love any help at all from people who know what they're doing!

The ancestor's name was William Cordell. He was born in 1894 in Harlow, Essex. We're not sure when/where he joined up or shipped out, although that would be information that we'd love to have if it was possible to find. His pension card gives two service numbers: 392916 and 6636. It also lists three units: 5th Essex, 9th London, and 5th London. It looks like he was discharged on 11 July 1919. It seems that he was then admitted to Claybury Mental Hospital on 19 Sep 1919. He died there 13 Dec 1964.

We're really interested in any information at all beyond what we already have, but we're specifically curious about his service numbers and units. Is there any way to figure out some idea of where he was/what he was doing during the war? Why would have have changed units so many times? Was that common? I have similar questions with the service numbers. Can they tell us anything? And why would have have been given two?

We're also currently on a (almost certainly fruitless) search for a photograph of him. We plan to try to figure out which local schools he may have attended and inquire about any surviving class photographs, but I know it's a long shot. Still, if anyone has successfully managed tracking down a photograph before, please give any tips!

Below, I'm going to attach all of the military documents I've been able to find for him, just in case that helps! I know the chances of figuring anything else out may be slim, but I feel such an attachment to him. He wasn't a war casualty per say, but he did give more than anyone could have asked in service. Unlike his siblings, he never had a chance to marry or have children of his own, so my father and I may be the only people to remember and honor him. I'd like to do it as properly as I can. Knowing him as well as is possible feels like an integral part of that.

(Courtesy of Ancestry)

(Courtesy of Ancestry)

(Courtesy of Forces War Records)

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum. These links might explain the service numbers . Men could be transferred after wounds or sickness. 
 

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/london-regiment/
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/

His medal entitlement shows he didn’t entre a theatre of war until after 31/12/15 so you can search for the relevant war diaries of the London Regiment at the National Archives website. They are free to Dow, but you have to register first, also free.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=9+London+Regiment+&discoveryCustomSearch=true&_cr1=WO+95&_col=200&_hb=tna

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_col=200&_cr1=WO+95&_hb=tna&_q=5+London+Regiment

links above but you will have to chose the correct date and regiment from the list.

Michelle

[Michelle Young]

I forget to say that you may find a photo of him in a local newspaper. 

[Bordercollie]

One document you do not appear to have seen concerning your ancestor's military service is the medal roll for his British War Medal and Victory Medal.  You are in luck because the medal rolls for the London Regiment often provide a little more detail than those of other regiments.  The roll shows that the dates for his service in France/Belgium (theatre code 1a) were 31/8/16 to 12/10/16 and 28/3/17 to 16/3/18. This suggests that he may have been wounded in October 1916 but after recovery was fit to return to active service.

The two regimental numbers that you have found in your research arose from the re-numbering of the Territorial Force in 1917 which is explained here

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-the-tf-infantry-in-1917/ 

Medal Roll image courtesy of Ancestry

[charlie962]

40 minutes ago, Bordercollie said:

This suggests that he may have been wounded in October 1916

Indeed his name appears in the Daily Casualty List of 13/11/16 as Wounded (no more detail is given and the lists were published about a month after the actual wounding. So this all ties back to c 10th Oct 1916 actual wounding and evacuation back to England a couple of days later.

[charlie962]

He may have been wounded a second time just before that 16/3/18. You need to check the Nat library of Scotland for Cordell 392916 . 

"Weekly Casualty Lists - British Military lists - National Library of Scotland" https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/144481815

I'm not sure if I've linked you to the search screen?

[kathleenwalker]

Wow! Thank you so much. In the course of a few hours, you all were able to find more than we could in months. I'm unbelievably grateful. We plan to go to the museum and small archives local to William's hometown and ask about newspapers from the time, in hopes of extra info or a photograph (which would be a dream). Again, thanks so much for that suggestion!

If you don't mind me asking, how did you access the Daily Casualty List where he was first listed as wounded in 1916?

I've taken a shot at looking through the Weekly Casualty Lists. Nothing came up when I searched his service number, but I checked for "Cordell" and went through all the results just to be sure, but I didn't find him. I assume that the theory behind him possibly being wounded before 16/3/18 is that he was sent home ~6 months before the war ended? Was that unusual? I'd assume so, but I truly have no context for it.

Also, is there any way to tell the history or order of the units in which William served? For example: is there a way to know if he started in the 5th Essex, then went to the 9th London, then the 5th London, etc? It seems like the 9th London was his main unit, which is interesting to me, since he was from Harlow, Essex. Then again, I suppose they put men wherever they were needed.

Sorry for so many questions! Again, I massively appreciate all the work being done for us!

[AndrewSid]

Kathleen, 

it’s a complex business this to start with.  If wounded in 1916 he would be in the Times casualty list.  They stopped casualty report in April 1917 when from July HMSO took over.  Times list is free through library reference memberships but is a worse search experience.

There is a lot more to discover now we have his medal roll and clear dates. It seems a number of men deployed as draft replacements so a near  numbers search on other men will tell us more, then  there is the war diary. I’m maxed with 3 young kids today but I’m sure others will help in due course.

Andy
 

TO ADD - with analysis of other men it possible to suggest his UK unit.  For example Franklin 392980. Went to France at the same time with the 1/9th from Southampton arriving at the depot on 31 Aug 1916. He was previously 2/5 Essex (edited)  regiment.  Building a picture of a number of men is required to add confidence. 

Edited 20 August , 2022 by AndrewSid

[kathleenwalker]

Again, thanks so much! I never would have thought to try near number searches.

Bit of an aside, but I went to the local library today and managed to find a photo of William at a Sunday School outing in 1908, when he would've been 13/14! I thought I'd attach it here, simply because I'm so excited about it and it gives a face to the name we're all chasing. He's the boy in the 2nd row from back, center. Unfortunately, it seems that if Harlow did have a newspaper prior to 1950, there aren't records of it remaining, so finding anything in local papers is slim.

I'll definitely try to get a look at the Times next time I'm at an archive with access!

(Courtesy of Harlow Museum)

Edited 20 August , 2022 by kathleenwalker

[AndrewSid]

Here is the Times report from 13 Nov 1916.  Page 12.  Hard to find. given the medal roll has him leaving France on the 12th of October 1916. This fits the Times reporting.  So his wounding was around the 12th of October 1916.  The war diary likely to give us clues. 

Edited 20 August , 2022 by AndrewSid

[AndrewSid]

Medal roll has a draft of men deploying to France on the 31 Aug 1916. Starting with 392875 Pte Bateman all the way to 393047 Pte Gathercole.  88 men in the roll but likely more as men later posted to other units after sickness or wounded would be reported on the medal roll with their new regiment. You have 88 men to look at, specifically to give evidence to their period of deployment to France.   Franklyn was one as listed above. 

Edited 20 August , 2022 by AndrewSid

[kathleenwalker]

Wow. I'm actually speechless. That help was beyond anything I could have imagined or hoped for. Thank you so, so much. My father and I have spent over a year researching William at this point (I won't pretend I'm not a tiny bit ashamed of not having found the National Archives record myself) and we've become very attached to him. As hard as hearing how horrific his experience must have been is, we're around to remember it and honor his sacrifice. That feels deeply important to us.

We'll get those National Archives records ASAP. I did have one more question for now (sorry!), but do you happen to have a link or address for the Harlow Local Studies? I've tried Googling it, but I've come up empty.

Again: thank you, thank you, thank you. To everyone who has jumped in to help us sort out a history of our William. We'll absolutely keep all of you posted as we move forward.

[AndrewSid]

Brilliant work Alan.

The battalion war diary will allow you to understand  his experiences for his two stints in France.  For some wider context the brigade war diaries are also available from the NA for free.  In this case mostly 169 brigade  and for a short period under 175 brigade in 1918. For background a brigade was the HQ element that commanded 4 infantry battalions (latterly 3). The brigade documents are often useful for maps and reports on specific actions. 

The information and records on him are about as good as you can get.  Once you know where to look!

I too haven’t seen a second wounding that would account for his return to the uk in 1918. The records at Kew will likely explain that. 

Andy
 

 

[kathleenwalker]

Once again, I'm going to start of by thanking everyone who has helped out with this so, so profusely. I doubt I ever would have got this far on my own with it all.

I have an update! My father and I visited the National Archives today and got our hands on William's military medical records. They were definitely difficult to read at times, but we learned an unbelievable amount.

(All photos courtesy of the National Archives)

There's a lot to unpack from that, which we're starting on now. We read the documents (which also included temperature charts and a couple short letters between his sister, Alice, and doctors about William's condition) briefly at the National Archives, but I imagine it'll take a while to fully process and apply everything. We did, however, have a couple of immediate questions we'd really appreciate help with:

1. It seems that at some point, William says that he'd "never shoot himself in Blue clothes." Does that have any military meaning, or is it just a strange detail amidst his ramblings?

2. There's a very helpful part of the document that details his enlistment, movements, etc. It says: "Enlisted Nov/14. 2/5th Essex Reg. 3042. Transferred to 9th Londons July/16. Attached to 13th Londons Feb/18. To France 1916. Wounded Oct/16 in leg. Again Feb/18 in head." The 13th London Reg is curious to us. Is there anything that the difference between the words "transferred" and "attached" tell us, or is it just synonyms? Any idea why the 13th London isn't noted on his pension card, but the 5th London is? I remember the lovely (and very fair sounding) explanation that he might've been assigned to the 5th London during treatment simply to keep an eye on him, but I don't understand the 13th connection.

3. At the very top of the first document, it says that William was "Admitted to 57 CCS 23.2.18." Any insight into that 57 CCS is?

Any other insights or significant ideas from the attached documents are more than welcome! And if anyone sees an obvious lead or research line I shouldn't miss, please point it out to me! I'm sure that we'll have tons of other questions later, but we've got a lot to work through for now. More than I ever thought we would.

As a side note, we also looked through the West Essex Gazette at the British Library and couldn't find a single mention of William there. At some point in 1915, they even published a list of Harlow men who were serving (including those on the home front). There were a few other Cordells, but no William. I'm sad that he seemed to come and go without a trace at the time, but I'm glad to have looked and ruled it out.

I suppose our next tasks are to assimilate all of the information in the documents from today and see if we can map out what his life would've looked like in his regiments. As a possible avenue, we've found an Ancestry family tree created by the granddaughter of William's brother, Frank, who was listed as his caretaker on his probate. We're hopeful that if any of William's things (most hopefully, of course, would be photographs) still survive, Frank might have passed them down through his family line. Or perhaps Frank kept a diary or calendar that could offer some insight into the latter years of William's life. Either way, we're hopeful of eventually getting in touch with some other descendants, either to find new information or share what we've learned, if they're interested. We'll keep you all posted!

[Michelle Young]

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/locations-of-british-casualty-clearing-stations/ This should explain CCS. The blue clothes probably refers to the Hospital Blues, wounded soldiers were issued with a soft blue suit with a red tie. And did you spot the Haemophilia reference? Dementia Praecox is what we would now call schizophrenia. Given the Haemophilia and the wound infection described, it’s quite incredible he survived, and indeed, how he was accepted for military service. Poor man. 

[Bordercollie]

This earlier thread gives a great deal of information on the hospital blue uniform including some illustrations.

[charlie962]

What an excellent file to have.

His admission 23/2/18 to the CCS suggests wounding a day earlier. The war diary for 1/13 London's is here on Ancestry for that day. I note it says the Bn was relieved in the line but suffered 1 officer killed, 1 OR died of wounds and 2 ORs wounded. These changeovers could be dangerous because the amount of movement attracted additional enemy attention. 

"Ancestry.co.uk - UK, World War I War Diaries (France, Belgium and Germany), 1914-1920" https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/60779/images/43112_2955_0-00518?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=c5234abe95c9db924f0b85ab072e2546&pId=546121

[charlie962]

The MH106 also tells us he was D Company. D Company were at Oppy Post since 17/2/18.

[kathleenwalker]

I'm always amazed by how quickly and thoroughly you guys are able to sort out my questions. Thank you!!! I was also shocked to see that he survived the wounds described, and even more shocked that he was allowed to enlist in the first place. W/ a history of bleeding and a previous "nervous breakdown" at 17, you'd think they wouldn't have allowed it. It makes me wonder how truly "enfeebled" he must've been following that original c.1911 mental health crisis. Surely, if he had been significantly changed, someone would have noticed during his enlistment process or stay with the Essex Reg in Chelmsford. I know this is all conjecture, but it certainly struck me as odd.

Super interesting to learn about the hospital uniforms, and special thanks again to Alan for your explanations! You're all wonderful.

Charlie, I also got very excited when I saw his medical record list his company. Would you mind telling me what Oppy Post is?

[charlie962]

Just now, kathleenwalker said:

mind telling me what Oppy Post is?

It was a particular point in the front line trenches in the Oppy sector. 

That doesn't help you but some clever forumite will appear with maps etc. Too clever for me! 

Charlie

[kathleenwalker]

I would love some maps/guidance on whereabouts that was from anyone who happens to be inclined that way! I'm terrible with navigating those sorts of things.

I was just wondering... the records say that William was associated with the 13th London in Feb 1918. We're thinking that he sustained his head wound ~22nd Feb 1918. Was he... loaned to the 13th London and then immediately shot in the head? I assume they wouldn't've sent him off to a new regiment to be treated for a wound that was, by all accounts, gushing a terrifying amount of blood? Poor William. He seems to have had the worst luck.

[charlie962]

I think Cordell was probably one of those little batches who joined Kensingtons during the month whilst they were in reserve before they went back to the front in mid February. 

He may have been described as 'attached' but the MH106 does put him firmly there with D Company. 

The 9th Bn, (QVOs) from which he came, were undergoing restructuring and merging of its 2 subsidiary battalions that same month. That generated surplus men, hence the attachment to the Kensingtons. This restructuring was going on throughout the Army in France at that time due to a shortage in manpower. (A whole subject in itself)

Charlie

Edited 23 August , 2022 by charlie962

[tullybrone]

What an interesting topic. As others have said it is rare to see MH106 papers so you are very lucky to have been able to access that resource.

No one has commented thus far on the assertion in one of the medical reports that his 1918 injury was caused by the accidental discharge of a firearm by a fellow soldier.

While not all military crimes lead to Court Martial proceedings it might be worth looking up the CM Registers in case the incident was deemed sufficiently blameworthy to lead to a military court hearing.

It will only be a one line entry but if a soldier from his unit is listed in the weeks after he was shot you will have a further name to research.

Good Luck

Steve