Casualty Removal

[Lee Bradbury]

Not sure if this is the right section to post or whether there’d be a definite answer anyway.

If a man was badly wounded in/around Shrewsbury Forest in August 1917 during an attack was there a particular medical facility he’d be removed to first before being sent onwards?

I’ve no clue about the medical side of things so would appreciate some pointers in this direction please.

Many thanks.

[Coldstreamer]

Who is the person in question? It may well be that is this information is in the casualty returns 

[Lee Bradbury]

3 minutes ago, Coldstreamer said:

Who is the person in question? It may well be that is this information is in the casualty returns 

George Bradbury 22379 East Kent Regiment, I think he was a L/Cpl by this date (10 August 1917).

[Acknown]

21 hours ago, Lee Bradbury said:

the medical side of things

While we are looking for an answer, the medical chain is described here: http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/the-evacuation-chain-for-wounded-and-sick-soldiers/.

Acknown

[Lee Bradbury]

5 minutes ago, Acknown said:

While we are looking for an answer, the medical chain is described here: http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/the-evacuation-chain-for-wounded-and-sick-soldiers/.

Acknown

Ah, thank you, that helps my understanding.

[Acknown]

George served in the EKR as 22379, then the Labour Corps as 615769. 'No Labour, No Battle', John Starling and Ivor Lee 2009, tells me that his number would have joined the LC between May and Aug 18. Are you sure that he was with the EKR when he was wounded? Do you know which battalion?

Acknown

[Lee Bradbury]

21 minutes ago, Acknown said:

George served in the EKR as 22379, then the Labour Corps as 615769. 'No Labour, No Battle', John Starling and Ivor Lee 2009, tells me that his number would have joined the LC between May and Aug 18. Are you sure that he was with the EKR when he was wounded? Do you know which battalion?

Acknown

We believe that he was, after a lot of work by various Pals & sketchy recollections from my Dad, in the 8th Bn EKR.

We established he was wounded before 21st August 1917, whilst in the EKR, & some bits Dad remembers being told by his Dad tie up with the attack on Lower Star Post in Shrewsbury Forest.

He was badly wounded in the legs & said it took hours for the stretcher-bearers to get him back to a medical facility. He spent some time in a hospital in Scotland before being discharged.

Edited 19 August , 2022 by Lee Bradbury
Added image

[Acknown]

I wonder if you've read the battalion War Diary. If not, you can download it here: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353306. It's free if you create a (free) account. 

On 09 Sep, the battalion was ordered to capture a strong point known as LOWER STAR POST (within SHREWSBURY FOREST), but weather delayed it to the following day. It duly went in at 04.35 hrs on 10 Aug with 47 men from B Company under a 2Lt. The WD (page 226/291) takes up the tale. The attack was not a success, five men were killed, 23 wounded and three missing.

72, 73 and 74 Field Ambulances were in support of 24 Division. We need to discover where these were on the day to estimate where George was treated, but of course, he may have gone to another nearby FA instead. If no one else takes over the hunt, I'll have a look tomorrow.

Acknown

[Bob Davies]

23 hours ago, Lee Bradbury said:

Not sure if this is the right section to post or whether there’d be a definite answer anyway.

If a man was badly wounded in/around Shrewsbury Forest in August 1917 during an attack was there a particular medical facility he’d be removed to first before being sent onwards?

I’ve no clue about the medical side of things so would appreciate some pointers in this direction please.

Many thanks.

Hello Lee, as Acknown has stated....

 

56 minutes ago, Acknown said:

72, 73 and 74 Field Ambulances were in support of 24 Division. We need to discover where these were on the day to estimate where George was treated, but of course, he may have gone to another nearby FA instead. If no one else takes over the hunt, I'll have a look tomorrow.

It is a case of a lot of reading, however very satisfying when you find some clues. There are a set of books which are free to look at, which give you an overall idea of what was happening with the medical services/casualty evacuation etc. Volume III which is for the dates you need. link here;https://archive.org/details/medicalservicesg03macp/page/n3/mode/2up  the map below is from this volume. Start at page 137 for Ypres area. Regards, Bob.

Edited 19 August , 2022 by Bob Davies

[Lee Bradbury]

48 minutes ago, Acknown said:

I wonder if you've read the battalion War Diary. If not, you can download it here: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353306. It's free if you create a (free) account. 

On 09 Sep, the battalion was ordered to capture a strong point known as LOWER STAR POST (within SHREWSBURY FOREST), but weather delayed it to the following day.

 

Acknown

Acknown,

I’ve had a read the war diary of the attack on the 10th August, it took a while to figure out some of that handwriting!

I’d be very grateful if you could turn up anything but I’m more than aware it might well be a dead end, thank you.

 

[Lee Bradbury]

3 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Hello Lee, as Acknown has stated....

 

It is a case of a lot of reading, however very satisfying when you find some clues. There are a set of books which are free to look at, which give you an overall idea of what was happening with the medical services/casualty evacuation etc. Volume III which is for the dates you need. link here;https://archive.org/details/medicalservicesg03macp/page/n3/mode/2up  the map below is from this volume. Start at page 137 for Ypres area.

Hi Bob, thank you for that; tomorrow will be my day to read I think!

[TEW]

I've not looked at the Field Ambulances suggested by Acknown but I've looked at 24th Division ADMS and II Corps DDMS.

First, some notes regarding the general conditions for Aug 1917, taken from 24th Div. ADMS WO95/2196/1

9/8/17. 8th Buffs complain about the insanitary conditions of Canada? Trench or Tunnel? Owing to the intense shelling and incessant rain the men have been using the trench as a latrine. Storm water filling the tunnel has led to this state of affairs. Not verbatim as I can't make out the whole entry.

 

II Corps DDMS dairy has a 29 page (plus 4 pages of amendments) Z Scheme of Medical Arrangments which is dated 19/7/17 (amendments 28/7/17). I can't see anything that alters this scheme for mid-August. This is in WO95/659/3.

I'll include the section for 24th Division.

I don't know who was running the ADS at Lock 8, it may be 72, 73 or 74 FA but could equally be any of the FAs from the Corps. Lock 8 is the southernmost ADS marked on the previously posted map north of St Eloi.

TEW

 

[Lee Bradbury]

TEW, that’s some very interesting information & I’m very grateful for your assistance, thank you very much.

[Acknown]

On 10 Aug 17:

72 FA: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353297. 28.H.34.a.6.9 (east of DICKEBUSCH). About 7 km from SF. WD mentions advanced posts but no detail. WD entry for 10 Aug: 'Nil'.

73 FA: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353298. 28.R.2.a.8.9 (north of MENIN). About 14 km from SF. No WD entry for 10 Aug.

74 FA: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353299. On the SOMME.

These FAs may have been manning advanced posts, but I don't know which FA was supporting 17 Brigade. 

Acknown

Edited 20 August , 2022 by Acknown

[Lee Bradbury]

1 hour ago, Acknown said:

On 10 Aug 17:

72 FA: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353297. 28.H.34.a.6.9 (east of DICKEBUSCH). About 7 km from SF. WD mentions advanced posts but no detail. WD entry for 10 Aug: 'Nil'.

73 FA: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353298. 28.R.2.a.8.9 (north of MENIN). About 14 km from SF. No WD entry for 10 Aug.

74 FA: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353299. On the SOMME.

These FAs may have been manning advanced posts, but I don't know which FA was supporting 17 Brigade. 

Acknown

Thank you for the info & your time. I didn’t think it would an easy or clear cut question.

[Bob Davies]

1 hour ago, Acknown said:

These FAs may have been manning advanced posts, but I don't know which FA was supporting 17 Brigade. 

Acknown

From reading the 17 Infantry Brigade WD it would seem to me that the 74 Field Ambulance is supporting the 17 Brigade. Mentioned 6th Aug and 15th Sept 1917. Both mentions are in distribution lists of orders. There may be more? I have not got further. This shot from the WD courtesy Nat Archives, gives the lists of who is supporting  who, on paper but in practice things as we know do get intermingled due to the chaos of war. However it must give us a good start.

Edited 20 August , 2022 by Bob Davies

[Lee Bradbury]

19 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

From reading the 17 Infantry Brigade WD it would seem to me that the 74 Field Ambulance is supporting the 17 Brigade. Mentioned 6th Aug and 15th Sept 1917. Both mentions are in distribution lists of orders. There may be more? I have not got further.

Thanks again Bob. My learning curve is getting quite steep!

[Bob Davies]

28 minutes ago, Lee Bradbury said:

Thanks again Bob. My learning curve is getting quite steep!

Happy to help Lee, the 17th Infantry Brigade WD is here and quite easy to read. August 1917 to end Sept 1917. (It says July 1917 on page 3, ignore that. It is from as it says on page 1, August 1917) https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=WO+95%2F2204%2F5&_sd=&_ed=&_hb=

Edited 20 August , 2022 by Bob Davies

[Lee Bradbury]

52 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Happy to help Lee, the 17th Infantry Brigade WD is here and quite easy to read. August 1917 to end Sept 1917. (It says July 1917 on page 3, ignore that. It is from as it says on page 1, August 1917) https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=WO+95%2F2204%2F5&_sd=&_ed=&_hb=

Bob, I’ve downloaded that one & will go through it later. Thank you.

[Acknown]

7 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

it would seem to me that the 74 Field Ambulance is supporting the 17 Brigade.

Thank you, Bob, I seem to have made a mistake. 74 FA was not 'on the SOMME' but at RENINGHELST G.34.b.2.0. This puts them about 14 km west of 8th Buffs.

Acknown

[Bob Davies]

10 hours ago, TEW said:

I don't know who was running the ADS at Lock 8, it may be 72, 73 or 74 FA but could equally be any of the FAs from the Corps. Lock 8 is the southernmost ADS marked on the previously posted map north of St Eloi.

TEW

From the 72 FA WD the writer says visited Lock 8 on at least 2 occasions so it that would seen to me they are running it? Also mentioned start of August is 'Very bad weather has been raining all night...'    'country in a very bad condition very soft and muddy,  it takes 6 to 8 bearers to manage one stretcher case from the front line.'  Also 'memo from ADMS instructing me to detail 50 bearers to the 17th infantry brigade as they are asking for them.' Quite an interesting read though some words take a bit of working out, isn't that the challenge?  

[Bob Davies]

47 minutes ago, Acknown said:

Thank you, Bob, I seem to have made a mistake

Always happy to help. Those who never made a mistake never did anything! Cheers, Bob.

[Lee Bradbury]

59 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

From the 72 FA WD the writer says visited Lock 8 on at least 2 occasions so it that would seen to me they are running it? Also mentioned start of August is 'Very bad weather has been raining all night...'    'country in a very bad condition very soft and muddy,  it takes 6 to 8 bearers to manage one stretcher case from the front line.'  Also 'memo from ADMS instructing me to detail 50 bearers to the 17th infantry brigade as they are asking for them.' Quite an interesting read though some words take a bit of working out, isn't that the challenge?  

It takes the Wife & I quite some time trying to figure out what was written!

[TEW]

Looking further into the running of Lock 8 late July to 10th Aug

I note that 72FA visited Lock 8 and mention it a few times, just seen that 74FA also visited the Lock.

Lock 8 ADS was Nearly Complete 13/7/17. Working forward from that date you'd expect to see a field ambulance taking over or moving to Lock 8 or it's map ref of I.32.a.8.5.

 

72FA

21/7/17. went round the line -  Lock 8 - Larchwood.
22/7/17. Advance party.........to take over ADS at Railway Dugouts, Manor Farm & Larch Wood.
23/7/17. Took over MDS at Dicksbusch H.34.a.6.9
24/7/17. Visited Lock 8......I NCO & 4 men holding this place as an ADS later on. Visited Lock 8 (second visit), arranged to send up working party.
26/7/17. Visited Lock 8.
30/7/17. All bearers now in line, collecting post at Larch Wood, ADS at Lock 8.

24ADMS

26/7/17. ....to Lock 8 at which very good work has been done by Captain ????? RAMC 72FA.
31/7/17. ......walking wounded arrived Lock 8 ADS, lying cases about 4.45 and stretcher cases soon followed.

Annoying that no one actually mentions opening or taking over the Lock 8 ADS. Lock 8 was also the location for a walking wounded post from the front line and it does look like additional bearers (infantry, bandsmen) were sent up to assist clearing from RAP to ADS. I had wondered if the presence of 72FA at Lock 8 was to evacuate from the RAP and deal with the evacuation of the walking wounded and the light railway.

The entries saying they took over ADS at Railway Dugouts, Manor Farm & Larch Wood and Took over MDS at Dicksbusch H.34.a.6.9, seems a bit odd.

There is a table of locations dated 22/7/17 (same dates) that shows the right, centre and left division ADSs at Lock 8, Woodcote House & Canal Dugouts and no mention of a MDS at H.34. so I don't know why 72FA refer to three ADSs at different locations, nor do I know where Manor Farm is.

 

The DDMS II Corps gives an example of how to keep records which gives another clue. Dated 28/7/1917.

TEW

[Bob Davies]

55 minutes ago, TEW said:

nor do I know where Manor Farm is.

Manor Farm is I. 22. c. 6. 5. or there abouts. Map courtesy Nat Library Scotland