Samuel Johnson, Manchester Regiment, Southport.

[high wood]

I have been through all the Service Papers for soldiers called Samuel Johnson who served in the Manchester Regiment on FMP. Sadly, none of them have the same address as that given on the back of this post card, and none of them came from Southport.

I have checked the 1911 Census and the 107 Milton Street address is correct with Peter Johnson being the father of the Johnson family and Samuel being his 11 year old son.

I have found that a Pte. 61713 Samuel Johnson was listed in the October 1919 police gazette as being a deserter aged 20, date of desertion not known but deserted from Borden. Stangely his place and date of enlistment is given as France, 15th January 1919. His home address is listed as Reddish, Lancs.

Having never heard of Reddish, I looked it up to find that it is an area of Southport, Lancashire. Does anyone know if Milton Street is in the Reddish area of Southport?

I think that it is highly likely that I have identified the right man but I would welcome any evidence which confirms that I am on the right track, ot not.

 

[charlie2]

I think you will find Reddish is an area of Stockport not Southport.

Charlie

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reddish

[high wood]

2 hours ago, charlie2 said:

I think you will find Reddish is an area of Stockport not Southport.

Charlie

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reddish

Thank you for setting me right, I was clearly not paying attention having read through a dozen sets of Samuel Johnson, Manchester Regiment service papers. 

[high wood]

Does anyone know if the 1918 absent voters list for Southport has survived?

[Acknown]

7 hours ago, high wood said:

Does anyone know if Milton Street is in the Reddish area of Southport?

Post card reads: Milton Street, High Park, Southport:

www.openstreetmap.org

I can find no Reddish in Southport, so if that's 61713's address, he's probably not your man.

Acknown

Edited 18 August , 2022 by Acknown

[Acknown]

Thoughts. There are only a few medal-earning SJs in the Manchesters. If our SJ was aged 11 in 1911, he was born c.1900. he could not have been enlisted until 1917/18. A regimental numbers guru might tell us which of these fell into that timescale. Numbers are:

7237    
9641, 60266, T/391650  - Manchester Regiment, 1st Garr Liverpool Regiment, Army Service Corps. 
301685    
12816
9648

Acknown

[charlie2]

With the exception of 301685 which is a post 1917 8th Bn TF number, they appear to be 1914-15 K1 and City Battalion numbers.

Charlie

[high wood]

 

Acknown, many thanks for your input

7237  Papers survive, lived in Newport, Shropshire
9641, 60266, T/391650  - Manchester Regiment, 1st Garr Liverpool Regiment, Army Service Corps. His service papers have survived. not from Southport
9648 -301685 Service papers survive, home address, 25 Silk Street, Hulme. Age 39.
12816 actually 19/12816 19th Battalion, home address, 6 Laburnam Street Cheetham, Manchester.
 

Edited 18 August , 2022 by high wood
typos

[Acknown]

Interesting. We may be missing something here. The postcard may be Italian - 'cartolina postale'. Four Manchester battalions served there: 20th; 21st; 22nd; 24th. I missed from my list above 20299 who served in the 22nd. But he went overseas in Nov 15, so if the DOB is right, probably not a contender.

Acknown

Addition: Did 61713 serve in Italy, perhaps pre-2nd Battalion?

Addition 2: Check this out: https://collections.museumsvictoria.com.au/items/253304, and this: https://digital.tcl.sc.edu/digital/collection/wwIpc/id/942.

Edited 19 August , 2022 by Acknown

[charlie2]

Also missing 351459 Sam Johnson 2/9th & 12th Bns and 353192 Sam Johnson 12th & 1/10th Bns.

Of course there is absolutely no guarantee that he was still serving with the Manchesters when he wrote the card.

Charlie

[Acknown]

Here's my scenario. Our SJ was conscripted in late 1917/early 1918. He joined one of the 'Italian' battalions in mid-1918, perhaps even after the Armistice (no MIC). When his battalion was disbanded, he was posted to the 2nd Battalion and was due to travel to India (would a conscript have done this, to serve out some engagement? Maybe he was a volunteer). He was so disgruntled at having to go to India (or he had a personal issue) that he deserted. There are flaws in this but it's where I've got to so far. Perhaps he lived in Reddish anyway, having left the family home after 1911.

Or, could his lack of MIC be due to the fact that he deserted?

Acknown

[high wood]

12 hours ago, charlie2 said:

Also missing 351459 Sam Johnson 2/9th & 12th Bns and 353192 Sam Johnson 12th & 1/10th Bns.

Of course there is absolutely no guarantee that he was still serving with the Manchesters when he wrote the card.

Charlie

Incomplete medical papers for both of these Samuel Johnsons survive. 351459 has no home address given but he enlisted in Ashton Under Lyne. 353194 is in the same position except that his place of birth is listed as Audenshaw and his place of enlistment is given as Ashton under Lyne.

[high wood]

13 hours ago, Acknown said:

Interesting. We may be missing something here. The postcard may be Italian - 'cartolina postale'. Four Manchester battalions served there: 20th; 21st; 22nd; 24th. I missed from my list above 20299 who served in the 22nd. But he went overseas in Nov 15, so if the DOB is right, probably not a contender.

Acknown

Addition: Did 61713 serve in Italy, perhaps pre-2nd Battalion?

Addition 2: Check this out: https://collections.museumsvictoria.com.au/items/253304, and this: https://digital.tcl.sc.edu/digital/collection/wwIpc/id/942.

The back of the post card would certainly suggest service in Italy with one of the City battalions. I cannot find an English translation of the word Ubermor so I think that it is probably the trade name of the printer.

With regard to 20299 Samuel Johnson, there is no reason why he could not have been an underage enlistment. The only problem would appear to be his home town, Southport, located about 12 miles north of Liverpool. He is unlikely to have enlisted in the Manchester Regiment without a Manchester connection, (he have been employed there), but geographically, he would be more likely to join the King's (Liverpool) Regiment. It is possible that he had enlisted into another regiment before transferring to the Manchesters.

[high wood]

I have just checked the MIC for 20299 Samuel Johnson, 22nd Btn, having wondered how I had missed him during my initial trawl. The MiC gives his name as Samuel Johnstone, so unfortunately he is not a candidate.

[Acknown]

9 hours ago, high wood said:

probably the trade name of the printer

I'm sure it was. My second link above may show a photo of war damage, indicating that Vincenzo Candela took photos at the front.

Acknown

[PaulC78]

I'm not so certain that the man on the deserters list is the man from Southport.

You found Samuel Johnson in the 1911 Census at 107 Milton Street, and the same family were living at 123 Newton Street, Southport, in 1901.

Census records also show another Samuel Johnson born in 1900, he was the son of Frederick and Ann E Johnson of Reddish. That family lived at 4 Booth Street, Reddish, in 1901, and at 13 Haddon Grove, Reddish, in 1911.

[high wood]

27 minutes ago, PaulC78 said:

I'm not so certain that the man on the deserters list is the man from Southport.

You found Samuel Johnson in the 1911 Census at 107 Milton Street, and the same family were living at 123 Newton Street, Southport, in 1901.

Census records also show another Samuel Johnson born in 1900, he was the son of Frederick and Ann E Johnson of Reddish. That family lived at 4 Booth Street, Reddish, in 1901, and at 13 Haddon Grove, Reddish, in 1911.

I am pretty certain that the Southport Samuel Johnson is not the same man as the Reddish deserter. I was confusing Southport with Stockport. Thank you for the census information.