Medal "Roll of Individuals entitled to the Victory Medal and British War Medal granted under Army Orders 266 and 301

[Martin A Jones]

I am currently working on some research using the above forms listing men eligible for medals.  The forms I am using are those for the East Yorkshire Regiment.  I have two questions:

1. Why are some service numbers in the sequence missing?  Were they not allocated? Was a sequence of numbers not used in their entirety? Did the recipients not serve abroad?

2. In the remarks column, what does the term "disembodied" mean?

Many thanks, as always

Martin

[RaySearching]

12 minutes ago, Martin A Jones said:

Why are some service numthe bers in the sequence missing?  Were they not allocated? Was a sequence of numbers not used in their entirety? Did the recipients not serve abroad?

The service numbers will have been  allocated the soldier's who was allocated the missing  numbers on the medal roll may not have served in a theater of war or may have been previously  discharged from duty as not likely to be an efficent soldier or discharged from service for various other reasons They could also have been transfered to another regiment with whom the served in a theater of war, ect

18 minutes ago, Martin A Jones said:

In the remarks column, what does the term "disembodied" mean?

"Embodied" means being turned into a full-time part of the army in time of war. "Disembodied" means reverting to a normal peacetime role at the end of the war.

See this forum thread on the subject  HERE

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, Martin A Jones said:

Why are some service numbers in the sequence missing?  

Ray has explained. 

Just a couple of further points. For units like East Yorks the numbers will have been issued in sequential order when the men joined the unit. This can be helpful when trying to ascertain a man's joining date when his service record has not survived ( most were destroyed by WW2 bombing). There is a slight variation to this in that men who originally attested under the Derby Scheme (see the LongLongTrail site) will have presented themselves, but been transferred same or next day to the Reserve and not issued a number until they were subsequently mobilised for active service. 

Second point is that many medal rolls are not in sequential but alpha order or even somewhat random catch-up order. 

And remember there are exceptions to every rule! 

Charlie

[Martin A Jones]

Thanks for that but................. What is the difference between disembodied and discharged?

[RaySearching]

3 minutes ago, Martin A Jones said:

Thanks for that but................. What is the difference between disembodied and discharged?

Is it not explained in the link previously posted ?

[Martin A Jones]

So "disembodied: and "discharged" (both used in the remarks column) mean the same thing?  Sorry if I have not understood your reply.

[Martin A Jones]

Think I understand it now having checked a few entries on my records. It looks like disembodied is given to men who leave at the conclusion of the war and discharged refers to those who leave during the war eg: following injury/illness etc.

[kenf48]

41 minutes ago, Martin A Jones said:

So "disembodied: and "discharged" (both used in the remarks column) mean the same thing?  Sorry if I have not understood your reply.

Not quite.  These are quasi-legal terms to describe terms of service in the Army.

The 4th August 1914 Proclamation embodying the men of the Territorial Force for full time service is reproduced on the Long Long Trail

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/battles/proclamations-that-mobilised-the-british-army-in-1914/#tf

Individual soldiers who enlisted in the Territorial Force remained subject to the TF  Regulations even though Army Order 204 of 1916 allowed for their transfer to Regular or Service Battalions.  If wounded, for example they could be discharged from their obligation to serve in the Reserve.  'Disembodied' simply means once the emergency (or war) ended they reverted to the part time obligation held before the war but remained with their TF Battalion and undertook the obligations of the peace time TF e.g. drills and annual camp.

Soldiers who had enlisted in the Regulars or Service (Kitchener) Battalions were subject to different regulations as their service was 'for the duration of the war'. When the war ended and any Reserve committment had ended they were discharged from any military obligation.

An Army Order from January 1919 allowed for the disembodiment of individual soldiers and officers before disembodiment of the entire TF and stated that these men were to be dealt with under the Army Demobilisation Regulations as applied to the TF.  This meant they would receive a Protection Certificate and in the case of other ranks demobilisation leave in the same way as any other demobilised soldier and disembodied at the end of that period of leave.

One practical difference is a disembodied soldier would retain kit whereas a discharged soldier would surrender it (or purchase items).

You do not say which Battalion you were studying, but will self evidently find more men 'Disembodied' in a  TF Battalion, although after 1916 the distinction had largely broken down.

[Martin A Jones]

Now that explains a lot and is very helpful.  I am researching Northampton Territorials who were drafted into the 8th East Yorkshires. It started off we me following up a great uncle from the Northamptons who died of wounds in the East Yorks but had developed into me researching a whole batch of Northamptons who went along in the draft with him.  I have been cross referencing Northampton service numbers with East Yorks numbers.  Now understanding the term disembodied I can see from the medals rolls which (surviving) soldiers were territorials.  Excellent help.  Many thanks

 

[kenf48]

3 minutes ago, Martin A Jones said:

I am researching Northampton Territorials who were drafted into the 8th East Yorkshires.

My great uncle from Kettering enlisting under the Derby Scheme was posted to the Argylls never set foot in Scotland afaik!

[Keith_history_buff]

7 minutes ago, Martin A Jones said:

Now that explains a lot and is very helpful.  I am researching Northampton Territorials who were drafted into the 8th East Yorkshires....  I have been cross referencing Northampton service numbers with East Yorks numbers.  Now understanding the term disembodied I can see from the medals rolls which (surviving) soldiers were territorials.  Excellent help.  Many thanks

 

Yes, where "disembodied" is specifically mentioned on the roll, it's a great way of identifying those men who had enlisted under Territorial Force terms of service. The Military Service Act of 1916 removed the legal barriers of the various terms of service, in the manner that "Territorial-only" battalions lost that designation in theory.

[TEW]

Going back to question 1.

I had a look at WO329/918 which at face value looks to be in regimental number sequence and as you say there are numbers missing from the sequence.

The top image is from WO329/918 page 300/345 compiled 13/2/1920, the second image is from WO329/925 page 276/338 compiled 14/8/1920.

Ancestry

Quite what process the clerk's were adhering to would be guesswork but perhaps those with a 14-15 Star were processed at a different time to those that didn't. Can't say why 12300 Duerden is not in the other roll between Wheeler & Harling or why the latter two were processed six months before Duerden.

Second example is for 15953 Baggley East Yorks. As he transferred to South Wales Borderers and then Connaught Rangers his medals were issued by the Cork office who note his EY service. As it's noted here it will be absent from the EY rolls.

WO329/1688. Ancestry

TEW

 

[charlie962]

11 minutes ago, TEW said:

Quite what process the clerk's were adhering to would be guesswork

One always wonders. Different centres would have different proceedures. Maybe even clerks within centres.

Sometimes ,eg RAMC rolls, there appears to be a group headed by a Sergeant on each page. Sometimes I suspect there may be a connection to Company level returns. Sometimes there are obvious odds and sods catch-up lists. Sometimes....

[kenf48]

It is perhaps worth noting the administration of the issue of medals was conducted by a soldier’s last unit, they were named to the first unit with which he was serving when he entered a theatre of war.

Thus 12316 May is on the RASC Roll (M/411062)

Others may not have gone overseas e.g. 12303 Burton  ‘unlikely to become efficient soldier’ enlisted September 1914 discharged October 1914; 12306 ditto discharged November 1914 

 

[AndrewSid]

The question of missing numbers is one that certainly baffled  me for a period.  I found it was important to first understand when the numbers were issued. Was it the uk or was it at the depot in France on reallocation? If in France then the numbers all likely made it to the field.  If in the UK it’s a more complex picture. 
 

I researched a numerical draft of 70 men  (see the blogs page for the replacement draft story).  All the men had numbers issued in France.  The reasons for them being omitted were of course the usual ones such as postings to the Labour Corps following wounding or sickness and postings to other regiments after recovering from wounds. But they also included commissioning and desertion.   Of note is that those listed with a single battalion were likely killed, POW or discharged wounded/sick from that unit. Not all but the majority. 

Andy

[Martin A Jones]

Spent the last few days working on my 80 Northamptons drafted into the 8th East Yorkshires in September 1916.  They were virtually all Territorials and moved directly to the East York’s in France sometime around the 26th September. On the 13th November they were involved in the Battle of the Andre with tragic outcomes for both the group and individuals.  Only got as far as letter B surname (10 men) so far and so many awful stories.

Many thanks to all who have contributed my understanding of researching documents from the war.

[Mick M]

On 17/08/2022 at 16:15, kenf48 said:

My great uncle from Kettering enlisting under the Derby Scheme was posted to the Argylls never set foot in Scotland afaik!

My uncle enlisted in 1943, a boy from Birmingham and was posted to Cameronian Rifles, trained in mountain warfare and sent to Holland to fight!