HELP WITH MIC DETAIL

[Grandad]

Hi Everyone 

I would greatly appreciate some help with understanding the MiC of my step- grandfather, Bertrand Reginald Smith. The card shows two service numbers, Gunner in RGA 173013 and RE 612516. The number 173013 appears to be shared with another serviceman so a possible error. He was awarded two campaign medals but not the Star. 
He was born Bertrand Reginald Smith on 26/11/1893 in South London and married his first wife, Violet, in June 1918 and from that marriage record he was a private (Pioneer?) in the RGA. He survived the Great War without injury. I have been unable to find out anything else eg. whether he was attached to a Heavy Battery or Siege Battery. 
And we remember Rifleman William Walter Dunn, S/5282, 2nd Battalion Rifle Brigade,  who fell at the Battle of Westhoek Ridge this day 1917. May he rest in ever-lasting peace. 
Regards

Clive

[AndrewSid]

Clive,

Firstly the MIC usually only detailed the units a man served with whilst overseas in a medal earning country. In this case the two Regiments are clear as you have stated.  With regard to service numbers, unique service numbers were not yet in place during ww1.  It’s common for the same number to have been allocated independently to quite a few different men so I wouldn’t concern yourself in another man having the same number. 

With analysis on his service numbers more facts can be established such as date of issue which would likely allow you to understand when he moved regiments.  Looking at near numbers may help with what unit he was in but the Regiments in question can be tricky.

Moving regiments was very common.

Andy 

[Gunner 87]

Hi Clive. If you haven't already seen this Bertrand is listed as a Pioneer in the RE but clearly a Gunner in the RGA according to his VM and BWM Medal Roll which corresponds with your MIC. 

I have searched against Ancestry, Fold3 and Find My Past plus Lives of the First World War and cannot find any further information including attestation or pension records. 

[charlie962]

I think that RE number is a July 1919 issue so is potentially misleading. His war service will have been under the RGA number. 

Charlie

[Gunner 87]

I've just had a look at near service numbers.

173011 - Kelly - joined 28/07/1917 posted to 242 Siege Battery

173014 - Davis - joined 04/08/1917 posted to 194 Siege Battery 

173016 - Coleman - joined 08/08/1917 posted to 297 Siege Battery

so looking at the above it could be Bertrand joined the RGA at the beginning of August 1917. 

[charlie962]

3 minutes ago, Gunner 87 said:

I've just had a look at near service numbers.

173011 - Kelly - joined 28/07/1917 posted to 242 Siege Battery

173014 - Davis - joined 04/08/1917 posted to 194 Siege Battery 

173016 - Coleman - joined 08/08/1917 posted to 297 Siege Battery

so looking at the above it could be Bertrand joined the RGA at the beginning of August 1917. 

Note that Davis was a Derby Scheme man who originally attested December 1915, was transferred immediately to the Reserve and wasn't mobilised until August 1917. What might be the situation for Smith?

[charlie962]

SurreyRecruitment register show him as originally attesting RGA 9/12/15, home address 58 Hossack Rd Balham

Edited 16 August , 2022 by charlie962

[RussT]

1 hour ago, Grandad said:

The number 173013 appears to be shared with another serviceman so a possible error.

The number 173013 for the RGA belongs to a series of numbers that was not knowingly allotted to another man in the RGA. And there is no other man in the RGA with that number, as per expectation, so there is no (known) error.

You have possibly been confused in thinking of it being an error by finding an RFA man also with the number 173013 (W. Mathie).

The RFA/RHA and the RGA ran an entirely different series of service numbers to each other, so it is very common to find a man in the RGA having the same number as a man in the RFA/RHA but both will be valid.

Regards

Russ

[Terry_Reeves]

Interestingly, his RE number was issued around the first half of 1919. It might be that he extended his service for 12 months  to serve with the Army of Occupation in Germany. 
TR

[Grandad]

Hi Chaps

Many thanks to all for your contributions and thoughts; great work. Bert Smith lived into his 90s and seemed unaffected by his Great War experiences.

I have another problem with tracing information on my paternal grandfather, John Dunn. My father was estranged from him and hence very little is known of his Great War service. What I do know is that he was born in July 1893 in Epsom, Surrey, and sometime in late 1914/early 1915 volunteered in the army. Most likely this would have been at Kingston- upon-Thames. I suspect that his brother, William Walter Dunn, S/5282, joined at the same time. A distant relative told me that he was seriously injured at Cambrai in 1917 and after undergoing a pneumonectomy convalesced at one of the cluster hospitals in Epsom. At the time of the injury, we was transporting ammunition and the shock wave of a shell blast blew him into shell hole. When he was retrieved it was thought he was dead but was infact still alive. From this account I thought he might have been a driver in the AOC. He received a war pension and after the war returned to 13 Pound Lane, Epsom, to live with his mother, Sarah Hennessey. 
It is not much to go on and any help would be appreciated. 
Regards

Clive

[David Porter]

Clive,

From World War I Pension Ledgers and Index Cards, 1914-1923 on Ancestry:

Name:    John Dunn
Record Type:    Card
Residence Place:    Epsom
Service Number:    198499
Corps, Regiment or Unit:    R F A A V C.
Title:    WWI Pension Record Cards and Ledgers
Description:    Other Ranks Survived
Reference Number:    11/M/40295

The small preview on Fold3 looks like he was from 13 Pound Lane.
The RFA number 198499 indicates a transfer from A.V.C. to No. 3 Reserve Brigade RFA, Bulford, on December 7, 1916

[TEW]

5282 William Walter Dunn, Rifle Brigade turns up on four Casualty Lists. Daily Lists of 21/7/15, 30/5/16, 29/9/17 and 17/10/17. The latter relates to the previous date but niw states 'Previously Reported Wounded, Now Reported Killed'.

Two of the above give Epsom as  'Home Town / Place of Enlistment'.

Date of death given as 16/8/17 in 'Soldiers Died'.

TEW

 

 

[TEW]

198499 John Dunn RFA is also on a wounded Casualty List of 27/8/1917. Epsom again. Probably wounded late July early August.

MIC shows a SWB issued which should give an enlistment date.

TEW

[Mark1959]

Silver War Badge Roll says service 19/10/15 to 18/9/18. Driver. Discharged due to sickness from 6 Reserve Brigade RGA. Aged 24

Edited 17 August , 2022 by Mark1959

[TEW]

Walter also has an entry in MH106/304. Not seen the original on Findmypast but it's for 3 CCS circa June 1915 so probably relates to his first casualty list entry.

This should also give his length of service plus injury details.

TEW

[Mark1959]

TEW it was for a "GSW Chest"

[Grandad]

Chaps

Many thanks indeed for the info. 
As far as I know, William landed in France on 21 June 1915 with 9th Battalion Rifle Brigade and moved to the Salient where presumably he received his first serious injury in July. I knew he had been wounded a second time during 1916 but it is not clear where this happened as he was transferred from 9th Battalion to 2nd Battalion Rifle Brigade. I had always been lead to believe that he had Died of Wounds as certain records state this but confusingly others state KiA. He is commemorated at Tyne Cot with no known grave. I don’t understand the dates of 29/9/1917 and 17/10/1917 as I thought he died on or soon after 16/8/1917.

Very informative detail regarding his brother, John Dunn. Can I check that he was discharged from 6 Reserve Brigade RGA as earlier information suggests he was in an RFA Reserve Brigade. 

I assume that William attested in late 1914 or very early in 1915 to have landed in France on 21 June 1915 with 9th Battalion Rifle Brigade. Is there any information on his attestation date?

I attach a photo of William to put a face to the name. 
 

Thanks again to you all for your efforts; it’s much appreciated. 
 

Clive

[RussT]

3 minutes ago, Grandad said:

Can I check that he was discharged from 6 Reserve Brigade RGA as earlier information suggests he was in an RFA Reserve Brigade. 

It was 6b Reserve Brigade RFA

Russ

[RussT]

16 minutes ago, Grandad said:

I assume that William attested in late 1914 or very early in 1915 to have landed in France on 21 June 1915 with 9th Battalion Rifle Brigade. Is there any information on his attestation date?

You can get a very good idea by looking at Service Papers for men with near numbers. A very quick looks gives us:

S/5277 Enlisted in Hammersmith 03/11/1914

S/5283 Enlisted Epsom 04/11/1914

S/5290 Enlisted Chatham 04/11/1914

So you can be pretty confident that William enlisted on 04/11/1914.

His Soldier's Effects Record (SER) tells us he Died of Wounds (c.f. KiA in Soldiers Died Great War, SDGW). His War Gratuity in his SER was £13 (Type 1) which we can also use to estimate, independently, an enlistment date - it gives us November 1914 - so that is fully consistent with the other approach based on Service Papers and near numbers

Regards

Russ

 

[Mark1959]

21 minutes ago, RussT said:

It was 6b Reserve Brigade RFA

Russ

Apologies. Mea culpa

[TEW]

The dates of 29/9/1917 and 17/10/1917 are the dates William's details were published in the Casualty Lists. Normally there's a 3-4 week delay between being injured and publication. In this case it looks more like six weeks.

So, he was published 29/9/17 as wounded. 17/10/17 he was published as  'Previously Reported Wounded, Now Reported Killed'. This refers to the 29/9/17 publication.

Whether there's an error in reporting the wound injury is difficult to say.

Generally speaking a receiving hospital or CCS would inform his records office of his injury who would put him on a list for publication. If they received news that he'd DOW shortly after then either it's too late to stop the first report or an administration error has occurred.

TEW

[RussT]

36 minutes ago, TEW said:

So, he was published 29/9/17 as wounded. 17/10/17 he was published as  'Previously Reported Wounded, Now Reported Killed'. This refers to the 29/9/17 publication.

Whether there's an error in reporting the wound injury is difficult to say.

I think they were having a chaotic time - so not surprised if reporting errors occurred (2/RB War Diary, attached - courtesy Ancestry)

If he did DoW then his grave was evidently lost as he is on Tyne Cot.

Russ