RDF embarking for New York in July 1918?

[MaureenS]

Hi, I’m a newbie here so I hope I am posting this in the right place.

On researching an ancestor I have come across something on a ‘Statement of Services’ that I found intriguing. Having been unable to find any information I am hoping that somebody here has met before and knows something.

Sydney Read, 24335, serving in the RDF is recorded as Embarking for New York, America. He is also on a passenger list for the Mauritania arriving on 25/07/1918, where he and other passengers are described as ‘diplomats’. I have been in touch with the RDF Museum and they had no more information and were as interested and mystified as myself.

Many thanks in advance for any help.

 

 

Edited 16 August , 2022 by MaureenS
Think I was breaking rules by too big a clip

[KizmeRD]

Doesn’t it say ship’s drill sergeant? (Presumably teaching Merchant crew what end of the rifle to use).

MB

[MaureenS]

17 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

Doesn’t it say ship’s drill sergeant? (Presumably teaching Merchant crew what end of the rifle to use).

MB

 

[TullochArd]

1 hour ago, MaureenS said:

Sydney Read, 24335, serving in the RDF is recorded as Embarking for New York, America. He is also on a passenger list for the Mauritania arriving on 25/07/1918, where he and other passengers are described as ‘diplomats’. 

I suspect there may be a connection here with the British War Mission which was deployed and active in the USA around this time. This organisation was very "top heavy" in commissioned ranks.  The British Military Mission (Training) component was only under remit, and configured, to deliver advice on training and not actual "hands on" training. This advice was delivered at Brigade level and usually based on one officer.   As a SNCO/Other Rank it seems possible that Sydney Read may have had some support/administrative function within this organisation.

The 'Who's Who' of the British Mission to the USA (link below) not surprisingly only records commissioned ranks but is detailed enough to support the kind of hidden "background" activity that would be required for it to function effectively.  

Full text of "Who's who in the British War Mission to the United States of America, 1918" (archive.org)

I'd suggest scanning through the above for a very senior RDF officer/very senior former RDF officer and then comparing this with the passenger lists for a possible timeline connection. 

 

Edited 16 August , 2022 by TullochArd

[charlie962]

His service record has some correspondence including a faded note from him.

He was appointed Ship's Quartermaster Sgt, with the pay and  rank of acting Regimental Quartermaster Sergeant, between mid 1918 until 8/1/1919. There are a couple of other bits of paper that show this sort of appointment was normal. Because he was disabled from his war service,(wounded Salonika) it would seem a sensible appointment. 

Charlie 

ps I add the link to the page generally authorising such a position. 

"British Army Service Records 1914-1920 Image | findmypast.co.uk" https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f007341011%2f01031&parentid=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f7341011%2f34%2f1016 

Edit.. @FROGSMILE I draw your attention in case you haven't come across this 'appointment' before.

Edited 16 August , 2022 by charlie962

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

His service record has some correspondence including a faded note from him.

He was appointed Ship's Quartermaster Sgt, with the pay and  rank of acting Regimental Quartermaster Sergeant, between mid 1918 until 8/1/1919. There are a couple of other bits of paper that show this sort of appointment was normal. Because he was disabled from his war service,(wounded Salonika) it would seem a sensible appointment. 

Charlie 

ps I add the link to the page generally authorising such a position. 

"British Army Service Records 1914-1920 Image | findmypast.co.uk" https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f007341011%2f01031&parentid=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f7341011%2f34%2f1016 

Edit.. @FROGSMILE I draw your attention in case you haven't come across this 'appointment' before.

Hello Charlie, yes I’ve come across it before and it was common for vessels taken up for use as troopers (troop ships), especially if for extended periods.  There would usually be a commissioned officer who acted as officer commanding the troops under passage (leaving unit officers, including the OC, free of administrative responsibility, or any requirement to liaise with the ship’s master), and a QMS, who was responsible for store’s provided for use of the troops.  On lengthy voyages each man was given a ‘sea kit’ (in a canvas bag and with specified contents) and the QMS maintained the account for them and ensured the replacement of missing, or unserviceable items.

Edited 16 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

43 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

I suspect there may be a connection here with the British War Mission which was deployed and active in the USA around this time. This organisation was very "top heavy" in commissioned ranks.  The British Military Mission (Training) component was only under remit, and configured, to deliver advice on training and not actual "hands on" training. This advice was delivered at Brigade level and usually based on one officer.   As a SNCO/Other Rank it seems possible that Sydney Read may have had some support/administrative function within this organisation.

The 'Who's Who' of the British Mission to the USA (link below) not surprisingly only records commissioned ranks but is detailed enough to support the kind of hidden "background" activity that would be required for it to function effectively.  

Full text of "Who's who in the British War Mission to the United States of America, 1918" (archive.org)

I'd suggest scanning through the above for a very senior RDF officer/very senior former RDF officer and then comparing this with the passenger lists for a possible timeline connection. 

 

I’m interested in your comments about the Military Mission as comprising almost exclusively officers.  I know that there was a group of SNCOs sent to a few US training establishments to assist with practical training, and there are various film clips of their activities available on YouTube and similar.  Do you know if that was a different initiative?  One of my favourite photos shows a WO of the Army Gymnastic Staff demonstrating bayonet fighting and he very unusually wears an American cotton service dress uniform with his own insignia, almost certainly because of the sweltering climate.

[charlie962]

I had seen it for one-off troop movements, using one of the NCOs being transported but this seemed a more permanent posting in that he carried out the duties from 1/7/18-8/1/19. Would his responsibilities be restricted to British and Commonwealth stores, I'm thinking return trip ie not US?

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

I had seen it for one-off troop movements, using one of the NCOs being transported but this seemed a more permanent posting in that he carried out the duties from 1/7/18-8/1/19. Would his responsibilities be restricted to British and Commonwealth stores, I'm thinking return trip ie not US?

It was a very tried and trusted organisational protocol for embarked troops.  In peacetime it ran continuously throughout the ‘Trooping Season’ each year.  The ships QMS would commonly be an old soldier coming towards the end of service, or in later decades sometimes on an extended [long] service engagement.  It was usually a shuttle service, so returns were part of the service, yes.  The return passage usually had a purpose too**.

**in peacetime, time-expired men and those going on ‘long leave’(extended furlough).

Edited 16 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

Thanks

[TullochArd]

56 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m interested in your comments about the Military Mission as comprising almost exclusively officers.  I know that there was a group of SNCOs sent to a few US training establishments to assist with practical training, and there are various film clips of their activities available on YouTube and similar.  Do you know if that was a different initiative?  One of my favourite photos shows a WO of the Army Gymnastic Staff demonstrating bayonet fighting and he very unusually wears an American cotton service dress uniform with his own insignia, almost certainly because of the sweltering climate.

There are certainly some.  As I suggested "The 'Who's Who' of the British Mission to the USA not surprisingly only records commissioned ranks but is detailed enough to support the kind of hidden "background" activity that would be required for it to function effectively." 

Based on the ratio of US numbers (huge):British numbers (?) this still appears to be more demonstration value than hands on - even well beyond any "Train the Trainer" capability.  

Edited 16 August , 2022 by TullochArd

[Moonraker]

2 hours ago, MaureenS said:

... I have been in touch with the RDF Museum ...

I haven't come across this museum before and can't find anything from Googling. I assume it relates to the Royal Defence Force? Or did Maureen mean to say RAF (Royal AIR Force?)

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, TullochArd said:

There are certainly some.  As I suggested "The 'Who's Who' of the British Mission to the USA not surprisingly only records commissioned ranks but is detailed enough to support the kind of hidden "background" activity that would be required for it to function effectively." 

Based on the ratio of US numbers (huge):British numbers (?) this still appears to be more demonstration value than hands on - even well beyond any "Train the Trainer" capability.  

I think it was done realistically (given the disproportionate numbers) on a largely train-the-trainer basis.  There was a similar French Mission.  I’m pretty sure from memory that there are other threads covering aspects of this subject. The film clips make for interesting viewing and mainly focus on troops negotiating assault courses.  There are also stills showing trench based activities.  See: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K8Yeiyur5ps

”To train National Guard troops and new recruits, the War Department established over 30 camps in the United States. Soldiers were taught weapons proficiency, basic drill orders, physical fitness, military discipline, and command structure. After overseas deployment, doughboys received additional training from British and French instructors.”

Edited 16 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

40 minutes ago, Moonraker said:

I haven't come across this museum before and can't find anything from Googling. I assume it relates to the Royal Defence Force? Or did Maureen mean to say RAF (Royal AIR Force?)

Royal Dublin Fusiliers I imagine, if that had been his parent unit.  Presumably an old soldier posted to extra regimental employment (ERE).  Common even today. 

Edited 16 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[MaureenS]

Thank you all for all this information, a great deal for me to read up on.

Sydney originally enrolled into the Somerset Light Infantry on 08/04/1893, regimental number 4052. When he signs up on 15/11/1914 there are 2 Attestation Papers for him on the same date. It seems to me (and I know nothing about these things - steep learning curve!) that he signed with the Duke Cornwall Light Infantry who immediately assigned him to The Royal Dublin Fusiliers. It is there Museum that I contacted who suggested I join this forum. 

[charlie962]

40 minutes ago, Moonraker said:

assume it relates to the Royal Defence Force? Or did Maureen mean to say RAF (Royal AIR Force?)

Royal Dublin Fusiliers

[FROGSMILE]

20 minutes ago, MaureenS said:

Thank you all for all this information, a great deal for me to read up on.

Sydney originally enrolled into the Somerset Light Infantry on 08/04/1893, regimental number 4052. When he signs up on 15/11/1914 there are 2 Attestation Papers for him on the same date. It seems to me (and I know nothing about these things - steep learning curve!) that he signed with the Duke Cornwall Light Infantry who immediately assigned him to The Royal Dublin Fusiliers. It is there Museum that I contacted who suggested I join this forum. 

He was a Special Reservist with previous service as a regular soldier Maureen.  The typical sort of older but experienced man to be utilised as an instructor.

Reading between the lines:

1.  Initial engagement for regular service with Prince Albert’s (Somerset) Light Infantry.  Unclear how long his total engagement was or rank on completion.

2.  Enlists subsequently as a Special Reserve soldier (known as Militia before 1908) into the Duke of Cornwall’s Light Infantry (which implies he was living in Cornwall in order to attend annual training).

3.  On mobilisation in WW1 he was sent to Royal Dublin Fusiliers, probably because of difficulties recruiting sufficient numbers in Ireland after 1916, especially as Irish Regiments had a larger number of Special Reserve battalions.

Edited 16 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[MaureenS]

👍Thanks, photos are great too

[charlie962]

26 minutes ago, MaureenS said:

great deal for me to read up on.

I think the bit about Military Mission is not relevant to your quest. Sidney Read was the Ship's Quartermaster Sergeant on the troopship SS Orontes, a wartime conversion of a P&O steamer. 

Wiki has pics and history here:

"SS Orontes - Wikipedia" 

Edited- wrong war- see below

Edited 16 August , 2022 by charlie962

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, charlie962 said:

I think the bit about Military Mission is not relevant to your quest. Sidney Read was the Ship's Quartermaster Sergeant on the troopship SS Orontes, a wartime conversion of a P&O steamer. 

Wiki has pics and history here:

"SS Orontes - Wikipedia" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Orontes

Entirely possible, I’m only responding to the information and suggestions being posited.

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

I think the bit about Military Mission is not relevant to your quest. Sidney Read was the Ship's Quartermaster Sergeant on the troopship SS Orontes, a wartime conversion of a P&O steamer. 

Wiki has pics and history here:

"SS Orontes - Wikipedia" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Orontes

Launched in 1929!  Was there an earlier ship of that name?

[charlie962]

19 minutes ago, MaureenS said:

Sydney originally enrolled into the Somerset Light Infantry on 08/04/1893, regimental number 4052. When he signs up on 15/11/1914 there are 2 Attestation Papers

Frogsmile has explained, but I would point out that he was never Somerset, always Duke of Cornwall's (DCLI) When he reattested in 1914 for the Special Reserve, he rejoined the DCLI. After a year he was transferred to the Royal Dublin Fusiliers and was even briefly attached to the Border Regiment for embarkation duties before becoming Ship's QMS. 

All designed to confuse you.

Charlie

[charlie962]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Launched in 1929!  Was there an earlier ship of that name?

Haha, you spotted the deliberate mistake. Wrong war!

Here is the predecessor. 

"RMS Orontes - Wikipedia" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Orontes

[MaureenS]

?? Link to Wikipedia takes you to SS Orontes that was built is 1929, although I do believe there was any earlier ship called by same name?

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Haha, you spotted the deliberate mistake. Wrong war!

Here is the predecessor. 

"RMS Orontes - Wikipedia" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Orontes

Taken up as a Trooper as per earlier discussion.

12 minutes ago, MaureenS said:

?? Link to Wikipedia takes you to SS Orontes that was built is 1929, although I do believe there was any earlier ship called by same name?

See Charlie’s second link.  It confirms he was ships QMS (quarter-master-sergeant) and responsible for soldiers sea kits and ensuring they were fed properly.  He would have been the Army point of liaison with the ships administrative personnel, including cooks, etc.  Crew would probably have been Royal Naval auxiliaries (Volunteer Reserve).

Edited 16 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE