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Remembered Today:

Pte Robert Roe (2153), 7th Bn, Royal Munster Fusiliers


James862

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Hi folks,

I'm looking to wrap up some remaining details surrounding my Great Grandfather, Robert Roe (2153) for a book I am writing. He served with B Company 7th Bn, Royal Munster Fusiliers from 1914 to 1918 and fought at Sulva Bay, Salonika and Palestine. I've attached all correspondence I've found so far but some answers are proving elusive. Some of the answers I'm looking for are below:

  1. His approximate date of enlistment
  2. Details of his wounds/illnesses (he was wounded at Sulva Bay on the 21st September 1915 and again at Salonika (no date as yet) and was also at the Military Hospital, The Citadel, Cairo in May 1918 - possibly struck down with illness)
  3. His pension card reveals a 40% disability but was revised down to 30% two years later on review - was that common?

I've posted on the casualty thread for details of his wounds and also on the HMHS Assaye thread. I'm currently reviewing the casualty lists there but I figure someone might have some insights from the correspondence below that I haven't picked up on yet. 

Any steer would be greatly appreciated! 

thanks, 

James

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  • 1 month later...

James,

The 7th Battalion is quite an unusual regiment in that after it raised its 1000 men very few if any replacements seem to have reached the battalion.  It was merged into the 6th battalion after returning from Gallipoli whilst in Salonica.  As such 7th battalion men are few.  
 

First of all he was not wounded on the 21st of September 1915 . By that stage, although still taking casualties,  the battalion had seen its major actions in Gallipoli and was soon to be pulled out of Sulva Bay.  He was listed as wounded on the 21 September, these reports had a lag of several weeks.  Looking at Pte Firth who was listed alongside, he was killed on the 23rd of August. A look at the wounded around him will hopefully give us the date of wounding. 

have you read the Battalion war diary on ancestry or at Kew.

EDIT.  As for enlistment Pte John Kenny 7/2121 enlisted on 3rd Sept 1914. 

Andy

Edited by AndrewSid
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On 15/08/2022 at 19:11, James862 said:

Robert Roe (2153) for a book I am writing. He served with B Company 7th Bn, Royal Munster Fusiliers from 1914 to 1918 and fought at Sulva Bay, Salonika and Palestine. I've attached all correspondence I've found so far but some answers are proving elusive. Some of the answers I'm looking for are below:

The second medal index card also indicates service with the Royal Army Service Corps, ES/58786 which seems to match some of those pension cards above - which also give as S9959 too [this seems likely to be an earlier ASC number]. 

The Long, Long Trail suggests the ES prefix was a post-war re-enlistment number https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/letter-prefixes-to-british-soldiers-numbers-in-the-first-world-war = Could it be that his service record remains with the MoD [or is en-route to TNA, Kew]??

On 15/08/2022 at 19:11, James862 said:

His pension card reveals a 40% disability but was revised down to 30% two years later on review - was that common?

Very common for a %/grade of disability to reduce as men recovered somewhat, or wholly, so far as pensions were concerned.

M

Edited by Matlock1418
addn.
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20 hours ago, AndrewSid said:

James,

The 7th Battalion is quite an unusual regiment in that after it raised its 1000 men very few if any replacements seem to have reached the battalion.  It was merged into the 6th battalion after returning from Gallipoli whilst in Salonica.  As such 7th battalion men are few.  
 

First of all he was not wounded on the 21st of September 1915 . By that stage, although still taking casualties,  the battalion had seen its major actions in Gallipoli and was soon to be pulled out of Sulva Bay.  He was listed as wounded on the 21 September, these reports had a lag of several weeks.  Looking at Pte Firth who was listed alongside, he was killed on the 23rd of August. A look at the wounded around him will hopefully give us the date of wounding. 

have you read the Battalion war diary on ancestry or at Kew.

EDIT.  As for enlistment Pte John Kenny 7/2121 enlisted on 3rd Sept 1914. 

Andy

Hi Andy, thanks for this. Makes a lot of sense. The 7th were involved in the attack on Hill 60 on the 21st August suffering 45 casualties, it was the last proper direct action they saw even thought they were in reserve. Thank you for that reference RE: Pte Firth, I had thought August but Robert must have enlisted in early September by that account.

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21 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

The second medal index card also indicates service with the Royal Army Service Corps, ES/58786 which seems to match some of those pension cards above - which also give as S9959 too [this seems likely to be an earlier ASC number]. 

The Long, Long Trail suggests the ES prefix was a post-war re-enlistment number https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/letter-prefixes-to-british-soldiers-numbers-in-the-first-world-war = Could it be that his service record remains with the MoD [or is en-route to TNA, Kew]??

Very common for a %/grade of disability to reduce as men recovered somewhat, or wholly, so far as pensions were concerned.

M

Thanks for this M, he did indeed reenlist until 1920 when he was discharged. He was a baker by trade trade might have made use of his skills there.

In terms of his disability, would you have any idea as to what kind of classification a 30% or 40% would indicate? Lost hand, finger etc.? As I can't find any of his injury details I figured that might give me a clue.

Thanks a million!

James 

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James,

A search of more service/pension records may narrow it down further but he most likely  joined on the third or the next couple of days after that.

just to clarify enlistment circa 3 sept 1914 - or a day or two after that.  Wounding at Sulva Bay likely circa 24 Aug 1915. 

I haven’t had time to search any surviving pension/service records but  his wounding likely occurred at the same time as the 23 men listed with him: 

 

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14 minutes ago, James862 said:

In terms of his disability, would you have any idea as to what kind of classification a 30% or 40% would indicate?

The MoP guide indicates:

     40% Loss of thumb or of four fingers of right hand

     30% Loss of thumb or four fingers of left hand or of three fingers of right hand.

NOTE - in the case of left-handed men, certified to be such, the compensation in repect of the left arm, hand, &c, will be the same as for a right arm, hand &c.

Since thumbs and fingers don't regenerate one can only suggest that these indicate the level of impediment that might be experienced when trying to be employed rather than an exact disability for Robert Roe and his condition does seem to have been somewhat improved over time.

M

Edited by Matlock1418
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And just as I say that I found one of them. Pte Maitland 5223 has surviving records.  He was wounded with the 7th battalion on the 15th of August. Evacuated to 26 CCS the same day. 

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18 minutes ago, AndrewSid said:

And just as I say that I found one of them. Pte Maitland 5223 has surviving records.  He was wounded with the 7th battalion on the 15th of August. Evacuated to 26 CCS the same day. 

That would be him on approach to the "Pimple " on KTS on the 15th. Some brutal fighting over the course of the two days. B Company was decimated after being their left flank was exposed to Turkish snipers. Thanks a million for that Andrew. No sighting of Robert in the 26th CCS records? I can't seem to find them.

28 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

The MoP guide indicates:

     40% Loss of thumb or of four fingers of right hand

     30% Loss of thumb or four fingers of left hand or of three fingers of right hand.

NOTE - in the case of left-handed men, certified to be such, the compensation in repect of the left arm, hand, &c, will be the same as for a right arm, hand &c.

Since thumbs and fingers don't regenerate one can only suggest that these indicate the level of impediment that might be experienced when trying to be employed rather than an exact disability for Robert Roe and his condition does seem to have been somewhat improved over time.

M

Thanks for this M. Possible that whatever wounds he suffered impacted his trade as a baker. Loss of strength or that. Thanks a million again.

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3 minutes ago, James862 said:

Possible that whatever wounds he suffered impacted his trade as a baker

Pensions were certainly intended to help compensate for loss of employability and consequential reduction in earning capacity.

M

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  • 3 months later...
On 19/09/2022 at 18:47, AndrewSid said:

And just as I say that I found one of them. Pte Maitland 5223 has surviving records.  He was wounded with the 7th battalion on the 15th of August. Evacuated to 26 CCS the same day. 

Hi Andrew,

I know its been a while on this thread. Can I ask where you found Pte Maitland's casualty records? I can't find them on any of the usual places (Fold, Forces, Ancestry etc)

Thanks!

James

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