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2/15th London Regiment group photograph


high wood

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I have had this photograph for many years and have never been entirely happy with the accuracy of my research into the men portrayed in it. There are four names on the front and another, complete with an address on the reverse. Unfortunately, the signatures are not easy to decipher and have only the initial for the first name.

Firstly, I think that they are serving in the 15th battalion County of London Regiment. Civil Service Rifles. The cap badge worn with black hunting horn buttons would rule out the Denbighshire Hussars who have a similar cap badge. The Division sign, seen on the right sleeve appears to be that of the 30th Division, who the 2/15th Londons were attached to from late 1918. They also appear to have cloth shoulder titles, sadly unreadable.

The photograph was taken in France or the French speaking part of Belgium, see the notice on the door, there is also the use of the words Carte Postale on the reverse.

Two of the men have British War Medal ribbons on their uniforms so presumably have medal index cards. The other two do not, which may mean that theirs haven't been issued yet, or that they were not entitled to them. As the design for the B.W.M. ribbon was not approved until April 1919, the photograph must have been taken after that date.

The message on the back shows that someone wrote down their name and address possibly as a way of contacting him rather than for sending thrugh the post. The message reads. E, Beven. Brynamawr, Park Crescent, Bargoed, Nr Cardiff. I cannot find this address on the 1911 census.

 

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The names on the border of the photograph appear to read: A. Bowring, F. Downes, J. Pearce, A.T. Bradbury, if I am reading them correctly.

I cannot find a medal index card or service papers for anybody called Bowring in the 15th London Regt.

F. Downes might be George F. Downes 571354, 17th London Regt, later 545034 15th London Regt. There is a medal index card but no service papers.

J. Pearce might be Joseph R. Pearce 7326, 533936, but again, there are no service papers.

A.T. Bradbury might be Albert T. Bradbury, 6964, 533626. Medal index card but no service papers.

I have not seen the medal rolls for these men so I do not know if they were still sebving in 1919.

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Edited by high wood
Typo correction.
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Very interesting.  I think that @poona guardwill be interested to see the arm badges as the photo is of good quality and he is looking for Territorial Force images.

They are definitely 15th London’s (Civil Service Rifles) and wearing the cloth shoulder title that they adopted in I think 1916 (I enclose an image of the one of three patterns known to exist that I believe it is), plus the formation sign of the 30th Infantry Division.

None of them are wearing lanyards, but all have gone to the trouble to have their collars either cut and tailored (x1) or at least fitted with hooks to draw them together (x3).

31BA09BB-F49E-431B-B35B-9D1EEC44BBC8.jpeg

 

CF3CEAA0-C13E-4507-ABF1-9771CC252900.jpeg

C2EB02BE-D774-4678-BCD6-45B2D1CE5AA0.jpeg

62F9C2A2-1596-4F6E-B51E-F00F92565E2C.jpeg

D2770805-5C17-4B95-8E4B-446FE041EE2D.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Are the medal ribbons on the two soldiers on the right for the British War Medal?

Although the British War Medal could be issued without the Victory Medal, I thought that both the 1/15th and 2/15th Londons were entitled to the Victory Medal at least.

Mark

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55 minutes ago, MAW said:

Are the medal ribbons on the two soldiers on the right for the British War Medal?

Although the British War Medal could be issued without the Victory Medal, I thought that both the 1/15th and 2/15th Londons were entitled to the Victory Medal at least.

Mark

They are wearing B.W.M. ribbons. They would have been entitled to Victory Medals but the ribbons were not authorised until sometime after that of the British War Medal.

Edited by high wood
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2 minutes ago, poona guard said:

Nice photo. Can I use it my book on the Terriers, please?

Yes, you can but please credit the source.

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1 hour ago, Jrmh said:

A. Bowring, J. Pearce and A.T. Bradbury are listed in APPENDIX IX Other Ranks who served in the period 1914-1919 https://www.gutenberg.org/files/51387/51387-h/51387-h.htm if that is any help?

 

 

Many thanks for providing a link to a superb book. It is a pity that the O,.R.s are not listed with their regimental numbers and in strict alphabetical order. The Artists' Rifles managed it in their Great War history and I am surprised that the Civil Service boys, with all their bureaucracy couldn't manage it. G.F. Downes is on the list but he is down as G.F. Dounes.

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18 minutes ago, poona guard said:

of course, what do you want to acknowledge you as?

I have a great many other photographs that you may be interested in, what exactly are you looking for? 

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Anything that shows a cloth badge on a Great War soldier. I am compiling Terriers at the moment and will start on Corps troops next with and addenda at the end of the fourth volume of new photos and material. Any help much appreciaetd.

Best,

Dave

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4 hours ago, poona guard said:

of course, what do you want to acknowledge you as?

General High Wood 🤣

Thank God for the internet and piracy, or we’d still live in the world I grew up in where the only place to gain photos was via dusty old fee paying membership societies and museum archives.  Effectively cutting out everyone, but for a privileged few.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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15 minutes ago, poona guard said:

Okay will do so

I was jesting.  Best contact high wood via PM, as I think he is suggesting he has other images that will be useful for you.  

Edited by FROGSMILE
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3 hours ago, high wood said:

Here is the full photograph.

Southport 016.JPG

Thank you for taking the trouble to post the unadulterated photo.  Seeing the detail is very interesting and much appreciated. Using my imagination I see open faced young men of the type so common in 1918, hitherto held back by Lloyd George, who had perhaps probably been Boy Scouts, or Church Lads Brigade 1914-15-16, and whose whole lives to date had been in preparation for military service.  Cheerful at having survived and with end of war medal ribbons to prove it.  So many others in their cohort were not so fortunate…

Edited by FROGSMILE
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4 hours ago, poona guard said:

Thanks for this excellent photo. I would appreciate any others you are prepared to share.

Best,

Dave

I am happy to share any of them, but I am still in the process of cataloging my photograph collection album by album. As you are wanting specific photographs of T.F. soldiers wearing Divisional Signs, I will have to go through each album to see what I have. I do know that very few of my photographs show soldiers with Divisional Signs as most were taken in England before going overseas. I do know that I have one of a soldier in the 1/8th Lancashire Fusiliers wearing a No. 8  battalion patch and I am sure that I have a few others with either Divisional or Company patches. I will have to look through each album to refresh my memory of exactly what I have, it may take some time.

Simon.

 

Edited by high wood
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Hi Simon,

Sorry for being slow. Thank you very much for your kind offer which I really appreciate. I am interested in any TF photo that shows a cloth identifier, divisional, brigade, battalion, company and TF shoulder titles, at the moment this is just for infantry. My next book will be on Corps troops. I look forward to hearing from you in the near future.

Kind regards,

Dave

PS How do you want me to identify you in the acknowledgements?

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On 14/08/2022 at 23:17, high wood said:

I have had this photograph for many years and have never been entirely happy with the accuracy of my research into the men portrayed in it. There are four names on the front and another, complete with an address on the reverse. Unfortunately, the signatures are not easy to decipher and have only the initial for the first name.

Firstly, I think that they are serving in the 15th battalion County of London Regiment. Civil Service Rifles. The cap badge worn with black hunting horn buttons would rule out the Denbighshire Hussars who have a similar cap badge. The Division sign, seen on the right sleeve appears to be that of the 30th Division, who the 2/15th Londons were attached to from late 1918. They also appear to have cloth shoulder titles, sadly unreadable.

The photograph was taken in France or the French speaking part of Belgium, see the notice on the door, there is also the use of the words Carte Postale on the reverse.

Two of the men have British War Medal ribbons on their uniforms so presumably have medal index cards. The other two do not, which may mean that theirs haven't been issued yet, or that they were not entitled to them. As the design for the B.W.M. ribbon was not approved until April 1919, the photograph must have been taken after that date.

The message on the back shows that someone wrote down their name and address possibly as a way of contacting him rather than for sending thrugh the post. The message reads. E, Beven. Brynamawr, Park Crescent, Bargoed, Nr Cardiff. I cannot find this address on the 1911 census.

 

Youknowwhat 007.JPG

Youknowwhat 017.JPG

Could be Bevan not Beven?

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