Loss of the schooner "Wyre"

[clive_hughes]

Hi,

Tidying up my Anglesey casualty lists, I find a reference to a seaman from Amlwch who was serving aboard the schooner "Wyre" when the vessel was lost.  This in a local WW1 In Memoriam volume for the town and surrounding district, published 1920.    

The sailor in question (Hugh Thomas) has no specific rating, and nothing much is stated about either the ship or himself, other than his home address in Amlwch Port.  The principal local war memorial simply has "Hughie Thomas" under the "Lost on the Sea" column.  

So far I've not been able to find a war loss under the name of "Wyre". The main vessel which seems to stand out is the sailing schooner "Wyre" of about 71 tons, registered Fleetwood ( ship no. 17204), registry closed 1918 and apparently with a Crew List for 1917 in the PRO of Northern Ireland.  A  Crewlist image for Jan.-June 1915, submitted at Dundalk, stated the ship was laid up and the crew paid off.  

Can anyone please enlighten me as to the details of the loss of this ship?

[charlie962]

Yorkshire Post  21/11/18.

Shipping Notes.

The following vessel, previously referred to as overdue , is posted at Lloyds as missing: The Wyre (schooner) of Fleetwood, 57 tons, official no 17204, Jones master, sailed from Whitehaven ( for Annagassan, Dundalk Bay) on 4/9/18 with a cargo of coal, and has not since been heard of. 

Charlie

 

 

Edited 11 August , 2022 by charlie962

[charlie962]

Fmp have Index to Deaths at Sea.

They transcribe as one man for the Wyre, Dec 1918, but actually it is probably 3:

Jones (master?)

Thomas  (your Hughie)

Rooke 

"British armed forces and overseas deaths and burials Image | findmypast.co.uk" https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=BMD%2FMTM%2FBT334%2F0072%2F001-073&parentid=BMD%2FD%2FMARITIME%2F230927

Edited 12 August , 2022 by charlie962

[clive_hughes]

Charlie,

Thanks very much for spotting that.  I'll be able to check local newspapers now, and maybe other sources.

Much obliged to you,

Clive

[charlie962]

3 minutes ago, clive_hughes said:

check local newspapers

I had a quick scan but nothing so far! I have not checked Welsh newspapers, nor Irish. 

Always interested to hear if you find more, and how!  

Charlie ps that ref was an index. The actual deaths register must be more detailed.

Edited 12 August , 2022 by charlie962

[clive_hughes]

Charlie,

Based on the leads you so kindly came up with, I've made some progress.   Taking the Index you found, I managed to access the BT 334 "Return of Deaths of Seamen" on FMP,  for December 1918.  It showed John Rooke, Seaman, born & domiciled Whitehaven:  Richard Jones, Master, age 38, b & dom. Amlwch; and Edward (?) Thomas, Mate, b & dom. Amlwch.  Not sure what happened to Thomas' forename, I'm assuming it's a typo since the Index otherwise clearly identified that group of three men.  

Given that the war was still on when the Wyre disappeared, I tried the Tower Hill Memorial, using the name Rooke/Rook as a search term, but none commemorated.  It's hit-and-miss in this field, since I have casualties officially commemorated on other vessels which disappeared during WW1, without any evidence of "enemy action" being the cause.  But worth trying. 

Lastly, I tried the 1911 Census for 22 Llewelyn Street in Amlwch Port (same as in the local memorial volume) and seem to have found the family - father Edward age 47, a Master Mariner, wife Maggie and three children of whom the eldest is Richard Thomas, age 12, at School.  All born locally.  

So by 1918 Richard Thomas would be about 19 years old, and conceivably could have been skilled enough to be rated as a Mate, going by one or two other local nautical biographies I've come across.

That's a good result, but it begged the question as to whether the Master, Richard Jones, was likewise commemorated locally if that's where he was born and resident.  The town has several memorials and the 1920 In Memoriam publication, but at this moment in time I'm uncertain he is.  The only man of that name and rank listed was Skipper aboard the SS Salvia, a Grimsby fishing vessel which went missing in Sept. 1914 and which is on the Tower Hill Memorial.  He wasn't born locally, but his next of kin did reside in Amlwch Port.  It depends whether this other man is in the 1920 volume but would have to check that out.  If so, then Master Richard Jones of the Wyre isn't commemorated locally, whereas his Mate is. 

Mind you, it wouldn't be impossible for the BT334 birthplace/abode details to be incorrect - I've found that to be so on a couple of other occasions.

It might take a while (away from my sources at the moment) but I'll come back again.  Meantime I can see whether Richard's father  or this other Capt. Jones can be found in the Masters Certificates etc.  

Cheers,

Clive

[charlie962]

 Good to put proper names to these 3.

What would be the crew of a 57 ton Schooner? There were presumably others and presumably survivors? 

Charlie 

[KizmeRD]

A coastal schooner of this size and era may well have only had a crew of three (see photo below of similar vessel).

The Master may well have also been the owner.

MB

[clive_hughes]

Charlie and MB,

Nice photo.  No other crew or survivors mentioned - the vessel simply vanished after leaving Whitehaven, eventually being noted as overdue, and then after several months "missing" as of 4-5 Sept. 1918.   Nothing so far on wreckage being found, or of any sightings of the ship en route; or mention in a U-boat log for that matter.  From other examples researched lately, those would have been reported and noted.   I don't know if there were any adverse weather conditions at that time which could have played a part in her sinking.

There is a 1917 Crew List for the Wyre in the Public Record Office of Northern Ireland, but I have no experience of dealing with that institution - one can always ask!

Clive

 

[corisande]

As you know, the world and his friends were called Hugh Thomas in Amlwch

But here is a runner

[corisande]

This Irish Wrecks site has this entry, which is probably your Wyre

http://www.irishwrecksonline.net/Lists/DownSouthListC.htm

[charlie962]

Excellent info from MB and from Corisande. You know where to look.

[charlie962]

Was it viable carrying a few tons of coal across the sea?

[corisande]

2 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Was it viable carrying a few tons of coal across the sea?

Ireland had to import practically all its coal

4 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

You know where to look.

 

3 hours ago, clive_hughes said:

1917 Crew List for the Wyre in the Public Record Office of Northern Ireland,

I also know where not to look, that Northern Ireland PRO site is possibly the worst public information site on the web. I probably have spent 10 years trying to extract information from it, and failed most of the time

[KizmeRD]

Charlie,

Hundreds of schooners (and other sailing vessels) were still being used used to transport Welsh coal around the UK/Irish coast up until 1918). The trade had provided livelihoods for many generations of seafaring families. However after WW1, larger steel steamships were in ample supply and they therefore stole all this traditional trade away - economies of scale!)

By way of general background interest (not directly related), you may nevertheless be interested in reading the detail given in this link…..

https://www.hollywoodancestry.com/post/william-moseley-descended-from-welsh-schooner-captains

MB

[charlie962]

1 minute ago, KizmeRD said:

By way of general background interest (not directly related),

Thank you. I do like the way that researching a soldier's (or sailor) life provides an excuse to deviate slightly and read about a historical subject that interests me but which I would otherwise probably not have thought of pursuing. 

Charlie

[corisande]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

Was it viable carrying a few tons of coal across the sea?

Of my own interest, I looked up the figures

In 1918 Ireland consumed 4,500,000 tons of coal. And produced in Ireland only 92,000 tons. So a lot of boatloads were needed to send coal to Ireland

[charlie962]

8 minutes ago, corisande said:

a lot of boatloads

Indeed!

[PhilB]

Presumably coal was a cargo susceptible to shifting in heavy seas?

[KizmeRD]

Cargo shifting is probably not a huge factor with a vessel that had so small cargo holds (assuming they were full - as they would have needed to be to make a profitable voyage), but having checked the weather for early September 1918 it appears that there was an Indian summer with temperatures up 32 degrees Celsius. We may never know the answer, but if wet coal is loaded, it is susceptible to cook-off in such temperatures, and so it’s just possible that the cargo combusted and the schooner sank due to a fire onboard. But in truth, it could have any number of things though, grounding on a rock, springing a leak in the wooden hull, adverse weather, hitting a mine - who really knows?

MB

[charlie962]

8 hours ago, clive_hughes said:

Return of Deaths of Seamen"

It didn't help that the schooner was shown as xWyne .17204.

[clive_hughes]

Yes, Charlie.   The little x before the name (when I finally ran it to earth) turns out to be a shorthand for "sailing vessel".  

I'm grateful to all of you for your observations.  Like Charlie, I don't mind going off round the edges of a topic since it puts people and events into a context.  It adds background to the picture of their lives and deaths. 

One minor issue resolved today - Hughie Thomas of Llewelyn Street appears on an earlier version of the Amlwch war memorial, but not Richard Jones his Captain.  I confirmed that the earlier list had a Master Richard Jones, but the address matched that of the captain of the "Salvia" sunk in 1914.  

Clive

 

[charlie962]

I am surprised there's no newspaper obit for the master? I had a look at Welsh newspaper archive but nothing, altho' Richard Jones not an uncommon name!

[clive_hughes]

Charlie,

Yes, it's very hit-and-miss, since the digitised newspapers are only a proportion of the titles held at the National Library of Wales.  I'm told that they are being added to, quietly and from time to time as funding permits.  However, of four specifically Anglesey papers during WW1, only one is digitised - Y Clorianydd  - which had Tory/Established Church leanings.  Y Wyntyll was the Liberal/Nonconformist periodical.  Both do carry general local news, of course.  Neither of the two Holyhead newspapers currently digitised. 

Having said that, the larger-circulation newspapers from across the Menai Straits frequently included Anglesey content; and there were some weekly Denominational periodicals as well.  It's even possible to find useful material in the Merseyside Welsh-language weekly, and even the USA Welsh-language one (both digitised).  

 

Edited 14 August , 2022 by clive_hughes

[Michael Lowrey]

Wyre was an old vessel, built in 1855 in Fleetwood. Her listed owner in the 1918 MNL is John T. Miller of Liverpool. Wyre though was registered in Fleetwood; she was of 57 nrt.