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Help with Regiment and approx year


hoppo1

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Would anyone be able to identify the Regiment and what date this might have been taken? Seated is Sgt Jack Brown and standing is CPL Martin (assume surname). I have a location of North West Frontier India but nothing else.

Thankyou Phil.

 

image.jpeg.df96a1d601d63b4d94f69dcf0bbc2386.jpeg

 

 

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Unfortunately the only regimental insignia visible is the shoulder titles worn by both men and they are in each case indiscernible.  There no other clues on the uniform I’m afraid so without more information about the two men there’s not much that can be said beyond that they both have the look of regular soldiers (or veterans), an aspect that I would happily wager upon.  They wear the khaki drill jacket and shorts common during the hot season on the North West Frontier of India.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Going by the tasches I would say Edwardian period, India or other hot country as froggy already posted

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The Sergeant appears to have 3 Overseas Service Chevrons on his right forearm so I am going for post 20 December 1917. 

Interestingly the Sergeant has the usual 40 ligne (25.4mm diameter) GS Buttons down the front of his tunic but the Corporal appears to have a smaller blank buttons down the front of his tunic .... also a different cut on the pocket flaps and collar? 

The Sergeant holds a pretty impressive whangee cane which is typical of India service. 

The Gordon Highlanders had similar from their India service that lasted to amalgamation and were particularly diligent in ensuring that officers' canes had exactly the same number of bumps to spell G.o.r.d.o.n.H.i.g.h.l.a.n.d.e.r.s. but I'm certainly not committing to this being a clue to identifying this Regiment!   

 

image.jpeg.df96a1d601d63b4d94f69dcf0bbc2386.jpeg

Edited by TullochArd
...... chevrons not stripes
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9 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

The Sergeant appears to have 3 Overseas Service Chevrons on his right forearm so I am going for post 20 December 1917. 

Interestingly the Sergeant has the usual 40 ligne (25.4mm diameter) GS Buttons down the front of his tunic but the Corporal appears to have a smaller blank buttons down the front of his tunic .... also a different cut on the pocket flaps and collar? 

image.jpeg.df96a1d601d63b4d94f69dcf0bbc2386.jpeg

Agree with your dating and one KD is I think Indian Government issue and the other British pattern.  Both types were common and there were also bazaar made uniforms cheaply available.  KD uniform is a minefield of variations exceeded only by that of Scottish pattern uniforms.  There are at least a couple of past threads that examine variations in KD in some detail.

NB.  I think that the two NCOs are probably from garrison battalions, many of which were formed from time-served former regulars and auxiliaries.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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8 hours ago, hoppo1 said:

Would anyone be able to identify the Regiment and what date this might have been taken?

I mentioned "The Sergeant appears to have 3 Overseas Service Chevrons on his right forearm so I am going for post 20 December 1917." 

On reflection the presence of Overseas Service Chevrons allied with the absence of Great War medal ribbons may put a possible end date as 1919-ish .... the photo therefore appears to be 1918-1919-ish.

......... and I'm still not committing to following up on my whangee cane bump observation. 

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5 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

I mentioned "The Sergeant appears to have 3 Overseas Service Chevrons on his right forearm so I am going for post 20 December 1917." 

On reflection the presence of Overseas Service Chevrons allied with the absence of Great War medal ribbons may put a possible end date as 1919-ish .... the photo therefore appears to be 1918-1919-ish.

......... and I'm still not committing to following up on my whangee cane bump observation. 

I agree that the end of the war seems likely.  Both men have a distinctly old-fashioned appearance though, which would chime with a garrison unit.  There were few regular infantry battalions back in India until after the war.

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Done some digging on Ancestry as Sgt Jack (John Thomas) Brown is related to my Wife. He enlisted in 1906 in the 1st Border Regiment and in 1911 is listed as being in Burma and Andaman Islands which ties in with what I've read about the 1st borders. Looking into his service numbers 8486 and 23710. According to his medal index he finished in the 1st Garrison Battalion Northampton Regiment so that's probably what the photo is. I assume class Z 4.4.19 means he became a reserve on that date so the photo would be prior to that? I can see he got the 15 star as well and looking at 1st B Borders the date issued ties in with when they sailed for Gallipoli. 17.3.15. Just need to plug the gaps in-between now. 

image.jpeg.edd11ba987b323073a40c6f7d6490dfb.jpeg

image.jpeg.45498e148bf836bbf01d92bd24de1d62.jpeg

image.jpeg.560789b45f7b4839fe1339c7528676fe.jpegimage.jpeg.946a1a69069a15d519cd68bc7460d843.jpeg

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2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I agree that the end of the war seems likely.  Both men have a distinctly old-fashioned appearance though, which would chime with a garrison unit.  There were few regular infantry battalions back in India until after the war.

Your comment  "Both men have a distinctly old-fashioned appearance though, which would chime with a garrison unit." rings a bell in my mind FROGSMILE. Well tended mustaches and slicked back hair on not young men seems to have been a thing on later Great War photos from India. The belts they are wearing look to be 1903 pattern on the right and a 1914 pattern on the left. Now is it me or my eyes but their rank stripes don't  look to be the 'hooked' on type? Whereas the 3 Overseas Service Chevrons worn by the Sergeant seem to be 'hooked' on?

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19 minutes ago, Bob Davies said:

Your comment  "Both men have a distinctly old-fashioned appearance though, which would chime with a garrison unit." rings a bell in my mind FROGSMILE. Well tended mustaches and slicked back hair on not young men seems to have been a thing on later Great War photos from India. The belts they are wearing look to be 1903 pattern on the right and a 1914 pattern on the left. Now is it me or my eyes but their rank stripes don't  look to be the 'hooked' on type? Whereas the 3 Overseas Service Chevrons worn by the Sergeant seem to be 'hooked' on?

Agreed on all counts.

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1 hour ago, hoppo1 said:

Done some digging on Ancestry as Sgt Jack (John Thomas) Brown is related to my Wife. He enlisted in 1906 in the 1st Border Regiment and in 1911 is listed as being in Burma and Andaman Islands which ties in with what I've read about the 1st borders. Looking into his service numbers 8486 and 23710. According to his medal index he finished in the 1st Garrison Battalion Northampton Regiment so that's probably what the photo is. I assume class Z 4.4.19 means he became a reserve on that date so the photo would be prior to that? I can see he got the 15 star as well and looking at 1st B Borders the date issued ties in with when they sailed for Gallipoli. 17.3.15. Just need to plug the gaps in-between now. 

image.jpeg.edd11ba987b323073a40c6f7d6490dfb.jpeg

image.jpeg.45498e148bf836bbf01d92bd24de1d62.jpeg

image.jpeg.560789b45f7b4839fe1339c7528676fe.jpegimage.jpeg.946a1a69069a15d519cd68bc7460d843.jpeg

That’s all entirely along the lines of what I imagined. Class Z was a reserve classification that most men were allocated to after demobilisation at the end of the war if they were not completely unfit for any further military service should an emergency require it.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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On 11/08/2022 at 13:14, TullochArd said:

I mentioned "The Sergeant appears to have 3 Overseas Service Chevrons on his right forearm so I am going for post 20 December 1917." 

On reflection the presence of Overseas Service Chevrons allied with the absence of Great War medal ribbons may put a possible end date as 1919-ish .... the photo therefore appears to be 1918-1919-ish.

......... and I'm still not committing to following up on my whangee cane bump observation. 

This dating makes sense.  Another dating clue is the simplified pattern khaki drill frock worn by the Corporal on the left.  IIRC, this frock appeared initially in 1915.

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