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A A R Norfolk Regt. Another soldier identified.


high wood

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The back of this photograph has the simple message. '& the best of health and good luck. A. A. R.' in fairly distinctive hand writing. It would appear that there was only one soldier serving with the Norfolk Regiment during the Great War. Albert Amis Roff. His service papers have survived and his signature shows the same handwriting as the message so I am pretty confident that I have identified the right soldier. Unfortunately, I have no way of knowing which man in the photo is Albert Roff. Oh well, you cannot win them all.

Roff.JPG

Roff 002.JPG

AA Roff Sig.jpg

AA Roff.jpg

Edited by high wood
Correcting typos.
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Possibly the Lance Corporal.  He was posted to the Norfolks (garrison battalion) in that rank and reverted 3-months later.  His prewar service (since 1911) would chime with the qualification badge above his lance corporal stripe too. The Lance Corporal is also taller than the others apart from the man on the left in the doorway.  How does that compare with his attestation document, etc?

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Hopefully @FROGSMILE can advise on the badge on the two men at the right hand of the picture. Lance Corporal on the right hand end looks like he has a "T" over it. Are they military tailors.

1 hour ago, high wood said:

His service papers have survived

Anything from the physical descriptions that might assist - particularly height.

Similarly anything on the Casualty Form - Active service or the Conduct Sheets, (assuming they survived) showing his army trade.

FindMyPast looks like there are several potential records starting in 1890 with a man born Brighton 1871, then records from 1907, (born 1876),  and finally I suspect the one you are looking at, 1911, (born 1876). As you can see middle name Ames and Amos but no Amis.

1817336402_FMPscreenshot080822.png.4091186515ace8c5ebff350e03989923.png

Image courtesy FindMyPast. Sorry don't subscribe so can't check them out further, nor can I find the 1907 records in the WO96 or WO97 series which I do have access to.

Cheers,
Peter

Edit:  Apologies - cross-posted with @FROGSMILE

Edited by PRC
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Two of them appear be tailors and the others perhaps bootmakers.

TR

 

 

 

Edited by Terry_Reeves
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2 hours ago, PRC said:

Hopefully @FROGSMILE can advise on the badge on the two men at the right hand of the picture. Lance Corporal on the right hand end looks like he has a "T" over it. Are they military tailors.

Anything from the physical descriptions that might assist - particularly height.

Similarly anything on the Casualty Form - Active service or the Conduct Sheets, (assuming they survived) showing his army trade.

FindMyPast looks like there are several potential records starting in 1890 with a man born Brighton 1871, then records from 1907, (born 1876),  and finally I suspect the one you are looking at, 1911, (born 1876). As you can see middle name Ames and Amos but no Amis.

1817336402_FMPscreenshot080822.png.4091186515ace8c5ebff350e03989923.png

Image courtesy FindMyPast. Sorry don't subscribe so can't check them out further, nor can I find the 1907 records in the WO96 or WO97 series which I do have access to.

Cheers,
Peter

I was cogitatating on that very subject!  There’s no official tailors badge, but it seems more than a coincidence that both men with the badge have a measuring tape draped around their necks.  I too see it as a small T surmounting crossed objects within a Laurel wreath.   The closest I can find is best shot among Corporals, Lance Corporals and Privates in a regiment or battalion.  See below.  It’s arguable that from a distance the star might look like a ‘T’.

D57E3630-457D-44D2-9B44-0B04B154668F.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Thank you all for your input. Albert Ames Roff was born in Brighton and enlisted in 1911 aged 35, (3rd battalion Queen's Regiment). On enlistment he gave his occupation as 'baker'.

AA Roff Sig - Copy.jpg

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3 minutes ago, Terry_Reeves said:

It looks like his civilian trade was baker, which does not coincide with the dress of those in the picture.

TR

The British Army was well known for ignoring a man's trade and putting a square peg into a round hole. Somewhere I have the documents of a soldier who was a peace time watch maker who was given the job of Cook. I often thought that he might have served his country better if they had allowed him to stay a civilian and make military watches.

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44 minutes ago, high wood said:

The British Army was well known for ignoring a man's trade and putting a square peg into a round hole. Somewhere I have the documents of a soldier who was a peace time watch maker who was given the job of Cook. I often thought that he might have served his country better if they had allowed him to stay a civilian and make military watches.

Thank you, but there seems to be a much wider skill gap portrayed in the photograph.

 

 

 

TR

 

 

 

 

Edited by Terry_Reeves
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2 hours ago, PRC said:

Hopefully @FROGSMILE can advise on the badge on the two men at the right hand of the picture. Lance Corporal on the right hand end looks like he has a "T" over it. Are they military tailors.

Anything from the physical descriptions that might assist - particularly height.

Similarly anything on the Casualty Form - Active service or the Conduct Sheets, (assuming they survived) showing his army trade.

FindMyPast looks like there are several potential records starting in 1890 with a man born Brighton 1871, then records from 1907, (born 1876),  and finally I suspect the one you are looking at, 1911, (born 1876). As you can see middle name Ames and Amos but no Amis.

1817336402_FMPscreenshot080822.png.4091186515ace8c5ebff350e03989923.png

Image courtesy FindMyPast. Sorry don't subscribe so can't check them out further, nor can I find the 1907 records in the WO96 or WO97 series which I do have access to.

Cheers,
Peter

Edit:  Apologies - cross-posted with @FROGSMILE

His height on enlistment in 1907 was stated as: 5', 6 & 3/4"

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33 minutes ago, high wood said:

His height on enlistment in 1907 was stated as: 5', 6 & 3/4"

I think that he might well be the Lance Corporal in the photo.  It’s a pity that the date the photo was taken isn’t known.  

Edited by FROGSMILE
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There is no likely birth for an Albert Ames \ Amis \ Amos Roff in England & Wales that I could find.

On the 1891 Census of England & Wales there is a 19 year old Albert Roff, born Brighton, who was recorded in barracks at Aldershot with the 1st Battalion, The Queens Royal West Surrey Regiment. That probably ties in with the enlistment in 1890 and may well be worth investigating further. On a 12 year enlistment such a man would have been either serving or a mobilised reservist at the time of the Boer War. While I can understand the three in aprons not wearing medal ribbons, would the same be true of the other two? Interestingly there is no obvious match for him on the 1901 Census of England & Wales.

There is a 20 year Albert E. Roff recorded on the 1901 Census of England & Wales living at 158 Brighton Road, Croydon, but he is shown as born Croydon. Head of the household is his widowed mother Mary. The birth of an Albert Edward Roff, mothers' maiden Hoare, was registered with the civil authorities in the Croydon District in Q2 1881. There are birth matches for his siblings from that census with mothers' maiden Hoare, so looks like the relevant birth has been identified.

On the 1911 Census of England & Wales, to add to the confusion there is a "29 year old" widower Albert Roff, formerly a House Painter, born Brighton, who was recorded as an inmate of the Croydon workhouse at Queens Road, Croydon. With hundreds of resident its not difficult to imagine an error creeping in when filling out the schedule, but unlucky that it's the man we are interested in. If it is him then looks like he signs up again less than 7 weeks after the census was taken - possibly he needed the regular income to get him out of the workhouse or conversely he was pushed into it, by the authorities but in the intervening period he goes from house painter to baker.

Because of the way the quarterly index of marriages in England & Wales was prepared, the best match I can see is an Albert Roff, (no middle names) who married either a Louisa Jane Lock, a Lilian Roberts or a Chrissie Hayman Crippen in the Croydon District in Q3 1907. And looking at deaths for the surname Roff in the Croydon District between 1907 and 1911 the nearest match is a 40 year old Louisa Roff in Q1 1911. There are always exceptions but perhaps being married to a 39 year old rather than a 29 year old would be a tad more conventional.

But the only places prior to the Great War where there is an Albert Ames \Amis Roff appears to be his military records, and so far they are not backed up by the civil records that I can find.

All very unsatisfactory and more work needed to confirm thats more than a load of genealogical red herrings.

2 hours ago, high wood said:

His height on enlistment in 1907 was stated as: 5', 6 & 3/4"

So unless the others present were midgets bantams possibly rules out the Lance Corporal and the man propping up the door. They look to be a good 3 to 4 inches taller than the other three which would have put the other three close to the minimum height of 5 feet 3 inches, until the rules were relaxed to allow the formation of bantam units. The men of the Garrison Battalions came from all over, so possible such bantams might have ended up in such a unit.

6 hours ago, high wood said:

 

AA Roff.jpg

Intrigued by this - he is a special reservist but attends 3 weeks plus of training annually in the summer pre-war. Presumably unlikely to be at the same time as the Territorial Force annual camp given those dates. May just be me, but never come across that before. Wonder if anything can be gleaned from that - does it suggest specialist for example.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited by PRC
Typos
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18 hours ago, PRC said:

There is no likely birth for an Albert Ames \ Amis \ Amos Roff in England & Wales that I could find.

Not quite true, the birth of an Albert Ames Roff was registered in Brighton in 1866, outside the time frame that is implied from all his records, but certainly in the right geographical location.

ROFF, ALBERT  AMES  Mother's maiden name: ANNES  

GRO Reference: 1866  J Quarter in BRIGHTON  Volume 02B  Page 168

According to the local parish records he was christened on 2 May 1866, his parent name's being recorded as Edward and Caroline Roff. There are two other male Roff births registered in Brighton between 1862 and 1865, with mother's maiden name being variously recorded as Annes (Albert James), Amos (Edward Joseph, 1862), and Ames (Frederick William, 1865). This means Albert would have been 25/26 in 1891, 35/36 in 1901, and 45/46 in 1911, considerably older than implied from his army records if this is indeed the right man.

The death of an Albert A Roff aged 83 was registered in Surrey, England in 1949, his age giving an implied birth year of 1866.

Roff is not exactly a common surname, but I'm finding no trace of the family in the 1871 or 1881 England and Wales censuses. Brother Edward shows up in the 1891, 1901, and 1911 censuses in Willesden and Acton, both in Middlesex, as a grocer/storekeeper. Albert himself first shows up in the 1891 census, as previously noted above. The closest match to the family that I can find in the 1871 census is a Caroline Roff, aged 31 and born in Brighton, Sussex, living in Lewisham, Kent, with her three sons, Edward I aged 8 and born in Brighton, Sussex, William T aged 1 and born in Lee, Kent, and an unnamed infant, aged 0 and born in Forest Hill, Kent. The ages may be a transcription error on FamilySearch, it would pay to check the original image, but if this is the family something very strange is going on.

Edited by Tawhiri
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1 hour ago, Tawhiri said:

The closest match to the family that I can find in the 1871 census is a Caroline Roff, aged 31 and born in Brighton, Sussex, living in Lewisham, Kent, with her three sons, Edward I aged 8 and born in Brighton, Sussex, William T aged 1 and born in Lee, Kent, and an unnamed infant, aged 0 and born in Forest Hill, Kent.

His army record indicates his parents were William & Caroline Roff

The Caroline Roff in the 1871 census has a husband Edward Roff

Edited by corisande
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1 hour ago, Tawhiri said:

Albert Ames Roff was registered in Brighton in 1866, o

This man is in 1939 Register. A retired widower, living at Hamilton Place, Penge. Born 6 Apr 1866

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Albert  has three periods of service

He has pension and service records on ancestry

32 minutes ago, corisande said:

His army record indicates his parents were William & Caroline Roff

and the husband of  Louisa Jane Roff  (nee Lock)

761361849_lockmarraige.JPG.e2d01f834e7797d147f8247354d6a2f7.JPG

Here is an extract from his pension records for his 1st period of service 

1607823173_istperiod.jpg.15d6f99bbecca1ba752aa5b14b391d95.jpg

although no help in identifying who is who on the photo

 

Ray

 

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The marriage of Edward Roff and Caroline Ames was registered in the last quarter of 1861 in Steyning, Sussex. I can also find a 30-year old Edward Roff, single and working as a servant to an oilman, oilman being the profession of the Edward Roff on Albert's christening record, living in Brighton in the 1861 England and Wales census. Edward's birth place is given as Coulsdon, Surrey, with an implied birth year of 1830/1831. Looking for Caroline is a bit trickier, and discarding the 14-year old Caroline Ames living with her family in Brighton, the logical candidate given the geographical location is the 23-year old Caroline Amos, born and living in Brighton with her family, with an implied birth year of 1837/38. The christening of a Caroline Ames on 24 October 1838, parents Joseph and Frances Ames, which is consistent with the names of the parents of the 23-year old Caroline Amos in the 1861 census, is recorded in the local parish registers.

I'm not seeing any obvious deaths for Edward or Caroline, the closest match I can find geographically is the death of a 42-year old Caroline Roff registered in Croydon, Surrey in the third quarter of 1880, which is not too far from Lewisham, Kent.

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Given the now confirmed possession of campaign service medals it suggests he is probably one of the three men in aprons, and would presumably appear more mature and perhaps with an outdated old soldier’s moustache.  It’s interesting that when signing up for 6-years special reserve service he declared his time in the militia but not his time in the regular army (first engagement).  It implies he was perhaps hiding from something.  My money would now be on the taller man in the doorway.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Thee is also a marriage in 1873 which could be a re-marriage

  Caroline Roff married one of these people
Richard Woodward, Albert James Hutchings
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The old rascal!  Serial enlister for short-service engagements.  Rifle Brigade, at Croydon initially, it seems.  And a teenager in the militia before that.  Over 20-years regular and auxiliary service by 1914?

Edited by FROGSMILE
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2 hours ago, corisande said:

Caroline Roff married one of these people
Richard Woodward, Albert James Hutchings

There is a Caroline Hutchings, wife of an A J Hutchings, living in Croydon in the 1881 census. I don't think she is the Caroline Roff we are looking for though as she is only 29, and was born in Croydon, Surrey. Interestingly though, her father's name is given as William Roff on the parish marriage register, which also confirms her husband as being the aforementioned Albert James Hutchings. There is also a record of her christening on 21 December 1851 at St Peters, Croydon.

Edited by Tawhiri
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2 hours ago, Tawhiri said:

The death of an Albert A Roff aged 83 was registered in Surrey, England in 1949, his age giving an implied birth year of 1866.

And confirming that Alfred Ames Roff did indeed die in 1949 at the age of 83, his death being registered in Croydon in the third quarter of 1949. From the official GRO Indexes:

ROFF, ALBERT  AMES  83  

GRO Reference: 1949  J Quarter in CROYDON  Volume 05G  Page 43

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55 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

the closest match I can find geographically is the death of a 42-year old Caroline Roff registered in Croydon, Surrey in the third quarter of 1880

And the possible death of his mother in Croydon, with an implied birth year of 1838.

ROFF, CAROLINE    42  

GRO Reference: 1880  S Quarter in CROYDON  Volume 02A  Page 148

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When you put it all together, this seems to be him. The only odd thing is his lies on his age in the army. I have no idea why he had to make himself 5  or 6 years younger for the army

 

1861 Edward Roff married Caroline Ames

1866 Albert Ames Roff born

1890 Dec enlists. in R WEST Surrey, Claims born circa 1871 & previously Militia. Parents William & Caroline Roff, Wentworth Rd, Croydon

1891 census with RWS age 19

1898 Dec transfers to A Reserve

1899 Oct Recalled Colours

1902 Dec Discharged from Colours

1907 married  Louisa Jane Lock

1907 Feb enlists in Militia

1911 Feb Militia time expired

1911 May 18 Enlists Special Reserve

1914 Aug 8 Mobilised

1914 Nov 28 landed in France

1917 Jan 23 Discharged. Debility

1939 Register  A retired widower, living at Hamilton Place, Penge. Born 6 Apr 1866

1949 died at the age of 83,

 

Edited by corisande
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