Is this trench watch real?

[the_ageing_young_rebel]

I've been looking for a nice trench watch for a while now. I loved the idea of wearing one and think they look very stylish as well as historically interesting. So when a working one popped up on ebay at a reasonable price, I leapt at it eagerly and looked forward to wearing it. Now I have it in hand though, I've lost confidence in its originality. I was wondering if you lot of knowledgeable folks would be so kind as to take a look at it and see what you thought?

The luminous paint on it just doesn't quite look old enough to me. Plus it seems to be photoluminous rather than radioluminous as I kept it in the dark for a few hours and it failed to glow, but then admitted a strong glow after being exposed to light for a few minutes.

Thanks in advance for any help/advice

[DavidOwen]

The "u" hallmark in the squarer outline is right for 1915, "GS" could be George Smith - London Silversmith but slightly confused by the "925" as I would have expected UK hallmarks unless the watch was an import.

However, the "u" in the circular mark is actually the inverted mark used by the London assay office for imported silver AFTER the 1973 Act (1975+)

So I am confused...

EDIT: The GS mark is for George Stockwell (Stockwell & Co) used 1908/9 - 1931/5 https://www.silvermakersmarks.co.uk/Makers/London-GS-GZ.html

So to conclude all the marks are right - except for the later London import mark... could it be an original watch somehow re-imported??

[DavidOwen]

Additionally "Brevet" refers to Patented not the name of a manufacturer, the cross next to it indicates it is Swiss. https://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/44524-brevet-pocket-watch

The number may be a case number - problem is finding for which manufacturer...

 

[DavidOwen]

OK the confusion re the London import mark has been solved. The Leo sign (the mark that is upside down appearing as a "u") was in fact used from 1907

https://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/casemarks.php

So the watch is Swiss made and the case was imported by Stockwell and Co in 1915 - no guarantees re mechanism / face.

[the_ageing_young_rebel]

43 minutes ago, DavidOwen said:

OK the confusion re the London import mark has been solved. The Leo sign (the mark that is upside down appearing as a "u") was in fact used from 1907

https://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/casemarks.php

So the watch is Swiss made and the case was imported by Stockwell and Co in 1915 - no guarantees re mechanism / face.

Thanks David, thats a great help! Do you know how easily a face could be swapped on a watch like this? Its the luminecent paint thats the only thing making me question it in reality.

Also does anybody know is photoluminous was ever used in this period rather than radioluminous? I don't even know when photoluminous paint was invented

[tootrock]

The material used to make luminous paint, basically Zinc Sulphide, is both photoluminescent and radioluminescent. However exposure to a radionuclide, originally Radium, causes the luminescent property to degrade over time, although it will still be radioactive. If the paint on the dial above was original I would expect it to be brown in colour, and not photoluminescent.

Martin

[JWK]

The case was made in Switzerland, and then shipped to the UK where [George] Stockwell & Company arranged for it to be hallmarked.

It was then sent back to Switzerland to be fitted with a watch.

https://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/sponsorsmarks.php#GS

 

As for the paint: maybe it was repainted after the dangers of the original radiumpaint became obvious?

There are a number of scratched numbers which could indicate the watch was repaired/serviced a few times by a jeweller?

[DavidOwen]

2 hours ago, JWK said:

The case was made in Switzerland, and then shipped to the UK where [George] Stockwell & Company arranged for it to be hallmarked.

It was then sent back to Switzerland to be fitted with a watch.

https://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/sponsorsmarks.php#GS

 

As for the paint: maybe it was repainted after the dangers of the original radiumpaint became obvious?

There are a number of scratched numbers which could indicate the watch was repaired/serviced a few times by a jeweller?

A fascinating history of Stockwell and how they operated, not silversmiths at all but merely agents for the assaying of precious metals in Britain.

So whilst the watch case was assayed in London in 1915 no information on when the watch was assembled can be deduced from that except that it was 1915 or later. Shame no maker's mark is visible on the movement or face.

 

 

[Chasemuseum]

Still worth checking with a geiger counter to see how radioactive it is. It may have had the radium based paint scratched off during a repair, but it may still be quite hot. Treat radium with respect.  This link gives a bit of guidance to managing watches

 

https://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/luminous.php

 

 

[pierssc]

The (Swiss) movement and the (British) case would have been put together in Britain - this was because of very high duty rates on imported finished watches - putting a Swiss movement in a British case avoided this.  That's quite normal for the time.    EDIT: I'm talking rubbish here - those are import stamps. The watch came into the country with the case. The style looks all right.  The dial looks a bit fresh but there may be signs of age that aren't evident from the photos.  The luminous paint also looks kind of fresh but both may have been renewed or even replaced.  The movement looks pretty clean.  The crown (winder) looks as if it is a replacement.  But that doesn't mean the watch isn't fundamentally old.  I would be much surer about its age if it looked grottier.  Doesn't mean it ever went anywhere near a trench, of course.

The movement looks similar to that of a watch I have which was found in a box when we cleared my grandparents' house forty years ago.  The case there has a "t" hallmark (1914-15) so the year before yours.  Note the dial in this case also looks pretty clean - though it has lost its crown and stem (the winder) which is probably why it was retired.  

The lack of maker's name on the dial points towards authenticity rather than otherwise - it wasn't usual c WW1 for makers to put their names on watches.  You'd be more likely to find the retailer's name on the dial. The movement (or calibre) can likely be identified and dated to some extent.  My notes on my watch don't make any mention of the movement type but I think I found out some more about it.  There are websites which help with this sort of thing.  David Boettcher's website www.vintagewatchstraps.com (linked to by JWK and David above - oops and Chasemuseum too) is well worth a read for a lot of info on watches of this period.  In particular take a look at https://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/trenchwatches.php

The tiny scratches inside the back of the case (just visible in the photos) were made by watchmakers who serviced the watch over its life.  Their existence (you may be able to make out some dates) tends to support the watch being an old one.

Anyway the important thing is whether you like it.

Edited 4 August , 2022 by pierssc

[the_ageing_young_rebel]

On 04/08/2022 at 19:40, Chasemuseum said:

Still worth checking with a geiger counter to see how radioactive it is. It may have had the radium based paint scratched off during a repair, but it may still be quite hot. Treat radium with respect.  This link gives a bit of guidance to managing watches

 

https://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/luminous.php

 

 

Thanks, I was thinking the same thing. I’ve searched around for a way to get access to a Geiger counter without buying one just for this, but I haven’t found one yet

[DavidOwen]

40 minutes ago, the_ageing_young_rebel said:

Thanks, I was thinking the same thing. I’ve searched around for a way to get access to a Geiger counter without buying one just for this, but I haven’t found one yet

Try your local school's or university physics department.

[MrEd]

10 hours ago, the_ageing_young_rebel said:

Thanks, I was thinking the same thing. I’ve searched around for a way to get access to a Geiger counter without buying one just for this, but I haven’t found one yet

Where are you in the country? I have access to a variety of Geiger counters and scintillation devices - if you are anywhere near Haywards Heath I would be happy to check it for you 

[the_ageing_young_rebel]

1 hour ago, MrEd said:

Where are you in the country? I have access to a variety of Geiger counters and scintillation devices - if you are anywhere near Haywards Heath I would be happy to check it for you 

That’s a very kind offer! And thanks so much, but I’m near Bristol so a fair drive away. Thanks anyway though

[MrEd]

1 hour ago, the_ageing_young_rebel said:

That’s a very kind offer! And thanks so much, but I’m near Bristol so a fair drive away. Thanks anyway though

My sister lives in Bristol, and I am down there probably 4 or 5 times a year, if you are in no rush I am happy to pack a counter next time I go - probably not until winter now though tbh

[the_ageing_young_rebel]

On 06/08/2022 at 21:17, MrEd said:

My sister lives in Bristol, and I am down there probably 4 or 5 times a year, if you are in no rush I am happy to pack a counter next time I go - probably not until winter now though tbh

Thanks again. That would be a great help! I'll see if I can find anybody in the local educational institutions that might be able to help sooner but I'll let you know if that doesn't work out. And I'll definately owe you a bottle of beer or something as a thank you gift

    Thanks again

[DavidOwen]

If the educational folks are all on summer break try your local County Fire Service HQ they should have access to a Geiger counter or similar. 

Good luck!