Pattern 14 Equipment

[RMAMarshall]

Carl,

Am up at university sitting my finals at the moment; all books are at home so afraid I cannot check the relevant details. Could you possibly post the LOC entry? Would give me a clearer idea of what is being talked about. I think I have seen what you are referring to, but my memory and the LOC headings are always somewhat at variance!

Richard

[Joe Sweeney]

While on P'14 do you know what the 'Belts, waist, universal size' are?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Carl,

Where did this nomenclature reference come from?

Joe Sweeney

[picardowoods]

Hi Joe

The reference isn't in the LoCs it is in a 1920 vocab list of "emergency pattern stores" This should be a scan of the whole section for P'14.

Have you ever come across any of these?

Carl

[RMAMarshall]

Carl,

I have seen the P14 webbing large pack straps, but nothing I could describe as a universal size waist belt. Could it be a belt of standard P14 configuration, but with more holes at either end for adjustment? The extending pieces seem to be the leather tab with the hole that sits behind the buckle and can lengthen the belt for wear with greatcoat etc.

Richard

[Joe Sweeney]

Carl/Richard,

Interesting reference. I know of no universal size of P-14 waistbelt. (I believe they were manufactured in two sizes-going from memory).

I'm wondering if this could just be a generic reference to all P14 waistbelts regardless of size.

I think the "Pieces extending" might actually refer to something else.

In P08 a special extension piece was manfactured and issued for those that needed a belt longer than the biggest manufactured size. Variuos GRO's talk to this piece of web, but I've never found a LoC number of PV "Stores" reference to one. I actually believe these to have manufactured at a Depot in France.

I'll have to check the QMG issue scales, but one also may have been developed for the P14 belt. I actually can't recal a mention for P14 but I'll check.

Joe Sweeney

[picardowoods]

Hi Joe

I was thinking, the P14 belt was initially issued in two sizes 42 + 48 inches and later 52 inches, 42 inches is still quite large even by todays averages, 90 odd years ago the average may have been several inches smaller - what if this universal belt is the larger size but with more adjustment holes, say down to 36 inches?

The "pieces extending" could just be another name for the tounge? you could after all make that any length you wanted?

An interesting point, as this document is just for emergency pattern stores, why are there only 3 items of P14 listed - two of which we know nothing about and non of them listed in the LoCs

What do you think?

Carl

[Joe Sweeney]

Carl,

The universal size belt can mean anything at this point, but I think you may have it. At one point the belt was made in one size with more adjustment points.

I have the 1915 PV "stores" and all amendments through 1918 and no mention of any of these articles.

Like Richard I have seen web versions of the pack straps and also web versions of the ammunition pouches.

I doubt the "pieces extending" referes to the tongue since the tongue was part of the manufactured belt. The tongue would fall into items of repair in the PV and not under the end item.

The Extending Pieces for the P08 were an item of issue as early as March 1915 (GRO 743) and these pieces were for the small web belts not the large. It sounds like too many small size belts were in circulation and a field fix was found to increase the size.

I have not found anything saying one was developed for P14 belts, but the nomenclature is the same so that would be my guess.

Take care,

Joe Sweeney

[picardowoods]

Hi Joe

I only have the 1915 and then the 1920 PV for land stores, but I also have the various N lists as well.

As for the web P'14 / linesman's pouch, I have them in tan and bottle green.

What you say about the extension pieces is true, we might have to wait a while longer to find that answer. I do have an 08 belt that has been extended at both ends, but it's difficult to see how you can do that with the P'14 belt as their make up is so different.

I lost out on the "GRO" abbreviation - I'm sure a short slap would remind me but in the absence of that, which orders did you mean?

Carl

[Joe Sweeney]

Carl,

GRO--General Routine Orders.

Each theatre issued a series of Orders from their HQ's-usually in two series-- AdjutantGenerals and QMG.

These are very insightful as to what was actually issued in each theatre and problems with those issues. Of particular interest are the Clothing issue scales (Usually quite detailed) and equipment scales.

Joe Sweeney

[picardowoods]

Thanks for that Joe, my mind was wandering off there - for a week or so!

Carl

[kerrychris]

Having briefly read some of the descriptions and wealth of information so many of you have, is there anyone out there who has pictures of uniforms and webbing from the beginning of the war to the end that they wouldn't letting me have...I always like to ask for permission first. I am particularly interested in what an infantryman in 1916 would have worn and what equipment he would have carried. Any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

Chris

[Fromelles]

Huge numbers of all web haversacks and packs were manufactured and not issued or saw limited issue (later being reconverted back to P08 after the war) Many dealers sell these as rare wartime hybrids they are not. These are the ones with the two inch chapes with grommts and all 1" buckles are of the P08 variety.

Joe Sweeney

A point of interest - In the Australian War Memorial on display is the uniform and equipment that was removed from an infantryman (4172 Private George James Giles, 29th Battalion, AIF) on coming out of the line, mud and all, the haversack is the P14 type that has been converted back to P08 (complete with brass grommets).

His uniform was removed at the end of July 1918, it included his helmet, boots, shirt, wallet, photos, money, matches, tobacco etc - everything. It was removed for the purpose of going on display.

It seems the reconversion of the P14 to P08 and reissue commenced prior to the end of the war (early enough to see active service).

I made a point of specifically looking at the haversack as I had heard of it being stated as being a post war conversion. I'll have to see if I took a photo of it, but if not maybe someone from or going to Canberra could get a photo and post a pic of it for us.

Dan

[grantsmil]

Already done Dan,

I am not altogether sure that the small pack seen on display in the AWM is the same one that is seen in the original black and white image. It almost looks as if the side buckles in the B&W image are 2" wide, while the small pack on display looks like it has 1" buckles. A bit hard to tell.

Attached are two images, a copy of the original B&W and the display at the Australian War Memorial

[Fromelles]

I am not altogether sure that the small pack seen on display in the AWM is the same one that is seen in the original black and white image. It almost looks as if the side buckles in the B&W image are 2" wide, while the small pack on display looks like it has 1" buckles. A bit hard to tell.

Grant,

That was quick!

I can assure you the haversack at the AWM is the standard P14 converted back into a P08 (2" buckles at the sides).

Dan

[grantsmil]

Thanks Dan,

It's just that in my photo of the display the buckle on the small packs appear as if it is not a 2" buckle. I probably should have sent a more reliable photographer over to Canberra.

I have got the correct black and white photograph, haven't I?

[Grovetown]

Have to say lads that the one in the display looks like a 14 Pattern buckle/ pack to me too.

Not only the width; but that it (the buckle) is squarer and has the rounded corners associated with 14 Pattern buckles. If shown that cold, I would have said it was the 14 Pattern all-webbing side pack.

Best wishes,

Grovetown.

[Chris Henschke]

Here's a better image. The side buckles on the haversack are rounded.

[Joe Sweeney]

A point of interest - In the Australian War Memorial on display is the uniform and equipment that was removed from an infantryman (4172 Private George James Giles, 29th Battalion, AIF) on coming out of the line, mud and all, the haversack is the P14 type that has been converted back to P08 (complete with brass grommets).

His uniform was removed at the end of July 1918, it included his helmet, boots, shirt, wallet, photos, money, matches, tobacco etc - everything. It was removed for the purpose of going on display.

It seems the reconversion of the P14 to P08 and reissue commenced prior to the end of the war (early enough to see active service).

I made a point of specifically looking at the haversack as I had heard of it being stated as being a post war conversion. I'll have to see if I took a photo of it, but if not maybe someone from or going to Canberra could get a photo and post a pic of it for us.

Dan

Dan,

We'll I hope someone has a better photo. I can't see enough either way, although the bottom 1" buckles look like they have been converted. I cant seem to find the original reference I thought I had after a quick search, so this could confirm that the conversions were earler than I had thought.

Joe Sweeney

[grantsmil]

Dan,

Your point is still valid.

The image from 29 July 1918 clearly shows the soldier wearing a modified P14 small pack (for P08 use). I can recall seeing other images of Australian troops using these modified packs, but I cannot find any examples at the moment. I have also examined some other P14 modified haversacks, and I would suggest that not all were modified to the same standard.

I found that some modified packs have an extra inspectors mark which incorporates a 'R ', I have asked a question regarding this mark in the topic: "Modified P'14 small pack, Question re the inspectors markings on modified packs"

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...showtopic=66121

Dan, the more photos I examine the more mixture of equipment I find. Although the Australian infantry mainly wore P08 web equipment, it is not that uncommon to find groups of Australians wearing a variety of types of infantry equipment, P14, P08 and Australian leather equipment, all in the one group of soldiers.

With this sprinkling of different types of equipment in single units, one could expect that modifications to various items were conducted at local levels, but the image here would appear to be an example of the recommended modification.

Close up of the modified pack.

[Chris Henschke]

2 inch buckles on the AWM haversack.

[wainfleet]

At nearly ten years old this must be one of the oldest thread revivals yet, but it contains relevant discussion and so I'm continuing it rather than start a new one. I happened to spot a detail on a stereo photo from the "Realistic Travels" series, which includes photos taken at various dates, some early in the war and some very late on or even slightly afterwards. One group of photos shows a squad of about eight men and an officer, looking very much like actors who've been given rather ill-fitting uniforms and posed in various locations, sometimes with a "German prisoner" or two. The captions to these photos are all fictitious, but they do appear to be taken in actual front line locations from which the fighting has moved on. My guess is that the location is the Hindenburg line and that the photos were taken very late in the war, probably the final few weeks. I'm basing that on the amount of kit lying about that evidently hasn't been there for very long.

 

Anyway, note the haversack being worn by the man nearest the camera. It is a converted 1914 pattern pack - the grommet on the attachment tab is clearly visible.

 

[Pete_C]

 

Quote

looking very much like actors who've been given rather ill-fitting uniforms and posed in various locations,

Indeed they do - this bloke clearly struggled a bit when attaching the e/t helve to his web equipment. Sorry, gone slightly off topic - the Realistic Travels series probably warrants its own thread. And they still turn up in serious publications when a trench action photo is needed. 

All the best,

 

Pete

 

 

[GRANVILLE]

Again, not wanting to deflect from the original thread, I could not resist applying some colour to an interesting photo. I personally suspect that not only are the figures 'staging' the scene, but that they are dressed in brand new uniform and equipment. The tunic looks like it still has a crease in the sleeve and the webbing worn looks as if in the main it is previously unissued. There seems to be a similarly good condition 2" shoulder strap lying on the top, left of the trench. Unsure if shoulder patch colours are correct.

 

David

Edited 31 January , 2017 by GRANVILLE