wainfleet Posted 23 April , 2005 Share Posted 23 April , 2005 As the "mutual friend" of Grovetown and Joe S referred to above, I thought it was about time I took the trouble to register. Here's my thoughts, for what they are worth (based on 25 years of observations, though unlike Joe I've been far too lazy to do the research properly): The only piece of post-16 dated 14 I've seen in 25 years of collecting was, as GTown indicates, a belt marked on the tongue, which had a different look to the rest and which I'd guessed had been replaced owing to the hole being pulled out of the original by the snake clasp. I have seen a few bits dated 16, not just the all-web packs but also the occasional belt and several pink and unused pairs of shoulder straps, R W Stiby 1916, from the defunct Anscombes surplus store in S London. I'd always assumed that by early 16 the supply of 08 was well onstream and it was decided to discontinue production of the inferior 14. However, that is purely an assumption based on having seen a lot of 14 over the years. Regarding rarity, there should be lots of waterbottle carriers and helve carriers about as masses of them turned up at Laurence Corner in the 80s (the helve carriers were all 1915 and marked to the 15? SLR, which I believe was an inland waterways battalion) and they must still be kicking around. I've heard the double-strap pouches referred to as "linesmen's pouches", though couldn't substantiate this. Did anyone point out that the leather on the long strap is rough side out on the "WW2" ones? There are also single-strap versions in smooth, Indian-looking leather with big chunky buckles that I very much doubt are WW1, and I have even seen the double-strap model in webbing. How weird is that?! Strange that none of the rest of the set seems to have been made later. Cymro - good to see you are still around, if that's who I think it is! E-mail me off forum as I MAY be able to help out with wbc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 23 April , 2005 Share Posted 23 April , 2005 Hello Wainers Good to see you here, and will catch up with you soon. Rgds, Grovetown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMAMarshall Posted 24 April , 2005 Share Posted 24 April , 2005 To add to Wainfleet's observations, I have also seen the single strap version of the pouches in webbing: there are a pair in the Musee de la Targette, I have a photo but it will not post. Has anyone seen an entrenching tool holder with buckles for the P14? Seems a logical progression, given the simplicity of manufacture (not to mention economy of precious rivets). Any chance of a pic of your set, Cymro? Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Henschke Posted 24 April , 2005 Share Posted 24 April , 2005 This is an extract from General Routine Orders, dated June 23rd, 1916. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 24 April , 2005 Share Posted 24 April , 2005 Wainfleet, Good to see you on the forum. Was wondering when or if you'd join. Take Care, look forward to your posts. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cymro Posted 26 April , 2005 Share Posted 26 April , 2005 Sorry everyone - I've just got the camera back and I'll post a picture of the set tomorrow... Its a bit dirty I'm afraid!!! Wainfleet - message sent off forum. regards J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cymro Posted 27 April , 2005 Share Posted 27 April , 2005 Hello all, Here eventually are some of the photos of the 14 set I recently bought. I've provided shots of the pouches and head carrier. I'd be most grateful for any observations on the relative condition, restorability and pattern of the pieces. I'm not an equipment collector, so all opinions will be valued. Regards Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cymro Posted 27 April , 2005 Share Posted 27 April , 2005 Left rear - both pouches have repairs to one of the rear retaining straps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cymro Posted 27 April , 2005 Share Posted 27 April , 2005 Right rear... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cymro Posted 27 April , 2005 Share Posted 27 April , 2005 Head rear... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cymro Posted 27 April , 2005 Share Posted 27 April , 2005 Front Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cymro Posted 28 April , 2005 Share Posted 28 April , 2005 What the picures will not show is that the pieces still remain supple and are not dried out in any way. J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Morton Posted 6 May , 2005 Share Posted 6 May , 2005 Gentlemen: I've thoroughly enjoyed the 61 postings on Pattern 14 equipment and various and sundry. The photos are terrific! Does anyone have the 1903 ammunition pouches and/or a whole bandoleer? Brownish or brown-red leather with brass studs and fittings. Worn by Brit Hussars in 1914, Indian Army 14-15, Engineers and others. That's unfortunately about the extent of my woeful knowledge. I have one or two photographic and painted examples I can refer to, but would much prefer some clear color photos if anyone has them? all the best, Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grantsmil Posted 7 May , 2005 Share Posted 7 May , 2005 Gentlemen: I've thoroughly enjoyed the 61 postings on Pattern 14 equipment and various and sundry. The photos are terrific! Does anyone have the 1903 ammunition pouches and/or a whole bandoleer? Brownish or brown-red leather with brass studs and fittings. Worn by Brit Hussars in 1914, Indian Army 14-15, Engineers and others. That's unfortunately about the extent of my woeful knowledge. I have one or two photographic and painted examples I can refer to, but would much prefer some clear color photos if anyone has them? all the best, Dan <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Have a look at your posting on Indian Army Equipment............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john in minnesota Posted 7 May , 2005 Share Posted 7 May , 2005 Did the P14 have anything akin to the P08 brace attachments? I have seen some photos, but nothing clear enough to be sure. Richard <{POST_SNAPBACK}> A fellow collector here in the USA has an example of the P14 brace attachment - I have a sketch of it but have not actually held it in my hand. Here is a copy of the sketch; a photo of a medic wearing such a brace attachment and a pile of surviving brass hardware: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMAMarshall Posted 7 May , 2005 Share Posted 7 May , 2005 John, Thanks, that was the photo' I had in mind when I made the request - I was wondering whether something had been salvaged from the slade-wallace equipment or the cross-straps had been modified in some way - I have a P-14 strap with buckle added to the end, presumably to be turned around the belt. Had no idea such an item was issue: something else to add to that never-ending wants list! Where did the brass bits turn up? Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john in minnesota Posted 8 May , 2005 Share Posted 8 May , 2005 Richard, Brass parts came in a "pile" of misc bits&buckles dug somewhere near Vimy - location seems to have been a medical aid station where they apparently burned the discarded equipment of casualties... I bought the pile from an ebay seller. Lot contained a complete set of buckles from a P14 belt; pack hardware, water bottle harness, gasmask hardware and this pair... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picardowoods Posted 9 May , 2005 Share Posted 9 May , 2005 Hi all Not that I'm trying to jump in with only my second post and with something good, but I do have a pr of brace attachments, one is rivited as above, the other stiched. They are both in excellent cond considering age. Off hand I can't remember if they are marked at all - I will dig them out to photo Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMAMarshall Posted 9 May , 2005 Share Posted 9 May , 2005 Carl, Would love to see some photos. Thanks. Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picardowoods Posted 9 May , 2005 Share Posted 9 May , 2005 Hi Richard I see from your profile your into early P'08 - something else in common - Hmmmm strait tips! Flared Braces! Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMAMarshall Posted 9 May , 2005 Share Posted 9 May , 2005 Carl, I have a pair of cross-straps, belt and waterbottle carrier and know the whereabouts of a LH 1908 dated pouch, but the chap wants $2000! Am trying to put a pre-Oct 1914 set together at the moment - just need the ammo pouches (I swapped my mint pair for a simplified jacket). What are your particular interests? Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 9 May , 2005 Share Posted 9 May , 2005 Carl, I have a pair of cross-straps, belt and waterbottle carrier and know the whereabouts of a LH 1908 dated pouch, but the chap wants $2000! Am trying to put a pre-Oct 1914 set together at the moment - just need the ammo pouches (I swapped my mint pair for a simplified jacket). What are your particular interests? Richard <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Pre-war 1908 webbing - I own two pieces - a 1911 dated cross-strap, and an ultra-rare 1908 dated left hand pouch with all snap-fastening - I find it fascinating to compare the differences between the earliest webbing and the problems they evidently discovered and set about rectifying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMAMarshall Posted 9 May , 2005 Share Posted 9 May , 2005 Andrew, This is why I have become so interested in pre-1914 P08 - the gradual refinement of the system to produce arguably the most advanced (certainly the most practical - although the American kit is very fancy, the pack cannot really accomodate anything it was not designed to) load bearing equipment in use in the word by 1914. I have 4 different designs of water bottle cradle, all introduced before the war ever began. Would be fascinating to read the trial reports and find out what pressures actually caused the changes. Does anyone know the form the sets trialled in 1907? I believe they were sent to India. Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picardowoods Posted 10 May , 2005 Share Posted 10 May , 2005 Blimey you guys don't hang around on this forum! Here are the pics of my P'14 Brace Attaachments sorry about the pic quality but I dropped the digi cam from about a foot above ground and it hasn't worked properly since. Enough of the excuses here they are. As far as I can tell they have been on that belt forever! a nice find from AUS - they cost a packet - Hey I was single then!! My specific interests arn't to specific, I'll collect anything well almost. I do like the very early P08 as well as the post 1918 stuff, there are some very interesting bits like the hybrid P'08/37 componants for example. But I guess one of my favourite sets of webb is the Naval P'19 (still looking for the cartidge carriers!) Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 10 May , 2005 Share Posted 10 May , 2005 Andrew, This is why I have become so interested in pre-1914 P08 - the gradual refinement of the system to produce arguably the most advanced (certainly the most practical - although the American kit is very fancy, the pack cannot really accomodate anything it was not designed to) load bearing equipment in use in the word by 1914. I have 4 different designs of water bottle cradle, all introduced before the war ever began. Would be fascinating to read the trial reports and find out what pressures actually caused the changes. Does anyone know the form the sets trialled in 1907? I believe they were sent to India. Richard <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Would be interested in seeing the four cradle variations - I know of only three (snap on top of the bottle, snap on the side, and the strange version designed to attach to the small pack, via an addition loop on the pack, which I have seen, but never the cradle designed for this). As a WW1 living historian, with a mostly original set of webbing I use for living history (prepares to be bombarded...), I can attest to its effectiveness - a really thorough and efficient design. Most of the changes seem to be "common sense" through trial and error changes - on my 1908 dated pouch, the metal end tabs on the straps aren't the standard "butterfly" tabs with the two pillared holes punched through, but are an unusual rectangular tab crimped over the edge, with sort of little teeth along the edges facing into the strap to give better grip into the webbing - I can see that this would be fairly easy to pull off the webbing, hence the later pillared holes to provide grip through the webbing itself. This was clearly done before 1911, as my 1911 cross strap has the standard metal tabs. I have 4 1908 pouches - 1908 left, 1915 right, 1917 left, 1918 left - from 1908 to 1918, the length of all the straps was gradually increased by about 2cm over the time - it may not seem like a lot, but it does make a real difference! Also, the backing plate to the snaps moves from being a small thin brass plate to quite a chunky, thicker plate - this helps prevent damage/deformation from ripping the pouches open in the heat of battle, not evidenced in the pre-war army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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