Pattern 14 Equipment

[Gijoe]

Hello

has someone informations and pics about the P14 Equipment ?

Particularly about the attachments and belts of the small and large Pack.

I saw diffrent Versions.

Thanks for any informations.

[roger]

GIjoe,

Email me off forum and I'll send some scanned pictures.

I don't want to infringe copyright as I can't afford it

Roger.

[Joe Sweeney]

Gijoe,

Attached are photos two P14 Haversack (i.e. Small packs)-Front and rear.

The left hand one is an all web version introduced in Nov 1915-replacing the leather version. Construction is identical to most earlier leather versions except the flap buckles are like P08. The side buckles are the same as all other P14 buckles. Large numbers of these were converted to P08 after the war.

The right hand sack is as introduced in Dec 1914. It has leather straps and the buckles are fixed with leather. The color of the leather is called London Brown. An earlier version (identical to this) was introduced in aug 1914 but the color of the leather was Service Dress (a green tint).

Joe S

[Joe Sweeney]

This is the Pack (large pack) introduced in Dec 1914 (again an earlier identical version save color of leather was introduced in Aug 14).

Joe

[Joe Sweeney]

This is the web version of the Pack as introduced in Nov 1915. The two inch chapes were repaired at some point.

There was an intermedate pattern from Dec 1914 which had 2" web straps on the back with all other straps leather.

Joe

[Joe Sweeney]

This is a close up of the pack (not the same one in the previuos post)

[Joe Sweeney]

Here are more generic P14 photos. Set front and back (post Dec 1914) all British Made.

[Joe Sweeney]

More photos of the rear of the ammo pouches showing attachment

[grantsmil]

Question for Joe,

I have also seen a large web pack that appears to be an all webbing P14 pack, the same as you have supplied images; but where all components were made of webbing and no leather at all. Do you have any information when these were introduced or would they come under the umbrella of the November 1915 intro date? Or are they some later modification?

[Joe Sweeney]

Last of the photos.

Top shows the back of the waist belt.

The middle shows the ammo pouch arrangement introduced in Feb 1918 that hasd two closure straps.

The bottom show and entrenching tool head cover. Although the color resolution is bad on this the leather is actually the original Service dress Color introduced in Aug 1914 and done away with in Dec 1914. The closure starp is london brown and gives and indication of color variation. This particular piece is also American made. Note the dished shape rivets only used by American manufacturers. British used post rivets (see the above ammo pouch).

P14 can have quite a bit of variation. Examples for the most part the 1" tongued buckles are all brass but I have one that has the frame in brass and the tongue in iron. Also most snake buckles for the belt are brass but I have one in a silver metal. Aklso what was actually riveted changed a bit to from version to version.

Joe Sweeney

[Joe Sweeney]

Grant,

The two inch chapes on the back of the pack were changed in with LoC 17219 in Dec 1914. Web and leather was manufactured in parrallel. However, the all web versions of both the haversack and pack were introduced with LoC 17599 (Nov 1915) replacing the type with Leather strapping in manufacture.

Huge numbers of all web haversacks and packs were manufactured and not issued or saw limited issue (later being reconverted back to P08 after the war) Many dealers sell these as rare wartime hybrids they are not. These are the ones with the two inch chapes with grommts and all 1" buckles are of the P08 variety.

Joe Sweeney

[grantsmil]

Thanks Joe, I suspected that the different versions hit the scene fairly quickly.

Huge numbers weremanufactured and not issued (later being reconverted back to P08 after the war) Many dealers sell this as rare wartime hybrids they are not.

I have several P14 haversacks converted to P08, and I did not realise how common they were until I started having a very close examination of all my small packs. I even have an example of a p14 haversack converted to an Australian P15 mounted pattern haversack (for want of a better term). Although I suspect it may not be an 'official' converstion.

Once again thanks

[Grovetown]

The middle shows the ammo pouch arrangement introduced in Feb 1918 that has two closure straps.

Joe - I was under the impression that as manufacture of 1914 pattern ceased in 1915 (save all-webbing packs), two closure pouches were not manufactured as such, and thus were always conversions of single closure pouches. (As per image below).

The possible exception to this being equipment made in India for that army.

Yours shows no sign of conversion - does it have maker/ date details on it, and/or am I mistaken?

Best wishes,

Grovetown

[Grovetown]

PS/ And herewith a pic of something akin to the 'intermediate' mixed leather/ webbing 1914 Pattern large pack. The rear brace attachments are webbing, all other elements being leather.

In fact, it appears to be a conversion or repair of an all-leather pack; as the 2" chapes are sewn over squares of leather which, I assume, are all that remained of leather chapes after being cut back.

[Joe Sweeney]

Grovetown,

Mine is not a conversion (no Maker mark either) and the LoC was sealed against future manufacture, It also has instructions on how to convert existing articles. This is a very common feature of LoC changes.

The pouch is P14, however, I've heard about Indian army but have never actually seen any source material about it. Apart from photos of Indian Army troops wearing P14, including troops in India, I've never seen any confimration about its manufacture in India or equivelent sets. Do you have any info on this?

What's your source on the stoping of manufacture of P14 in 1915. I have no info either way.

I have a P14 belt manufactured in 1918 by HGR.

Joe Sweeney

[Gijoe]

Hello Joe

thanks for the good Pics.

has the early version "Large pack" on the lower section sewn on fasten like the P14 small pack. Or the same latch like the 08 Pack ?

[Joe Sweeney]

Joe,

Are you talking about the two 1inch buckles on the lower portion of the pack?

These are the same as the haversack. However, the pack has extra loops to pass the equipment straps. Unlike p08 packs the P14 could be fastened directly to the belt.

Joe Sweeney

[Cymro]

I have a couple of questions for you Joe and the other authorities on P 1914 equipment if I may. I've read this thread with interest as I've always wanted to put together a complete set of 1914 equipment to put with one of my Welsh ww1 tunics. I've just bought a skeleton set - belt, cross straps, pouches and entrenching tool head carrier from very reputable source and am awaiting delivery. I got them very reasonably as the set is not in the best condition, and the leather is somewhat dry. Firstly, I was wondering if it is possible to get some suppleness back in 14 pattern leather after so much time. Is Connelly's (I hope that's the right name) the best material. I had a pair of VERY dessicated shoulder straps some years back and tried it with rather disappointing results.

The second question is this - are the two packs (large and small) of the December 1914 pattern (i.e. with the full leather attachments) rare pieces as well. I have the opportunity to buy an example of both from an experienced collector and was wondering if they came along very often. If I do get them that'll leave the waterbottle holder, helve holder/bayonet assembly and large pack cross straps to get. I have NEVER seen a pair of the latter until I saw your pictures Joe, so thanks.

Any advice gratefully received

Jonathan

[6th Hauraki KIA KAHA]

there is a topic called Leather dressings on page 2 o 3 of uniforms,arms ......

I use myself a product called Creme Essentielle by Melvo it is a german product I have found it to work very well on old dry leather if you can get it in New Zealand must be for sale in the U.K. It will noy change the colour of the leather, I do not like the dark look some products cause.

Some of the others have listed what they use.

Hope has been some help

Jonathan. P nice name by the way

[Grovetown]

Joe

Sorry for the inordinate delay in replying – Easter hols and all that.

One has been scratching away to defend the assertion, and it’s proving impossible. If I had been snatched from the street and strung by my thumbs to name a source, I would have probably named you. Obviously not. Have been speaking to Wainf et al about this, and the consensus is that general manufacture of leather seemed to stop in 1915 – for no better reason than we have not seen a piece marked such.

’16 dated packs don’t seem uncommon though.

You mention the belt – is it on the separate tongue (?), as this has been encountered before; and our belief is that this is a repair/ refurbishment element.

As for Indian manufacture, I once had a pair of unconverted pouches that weren’t dated; but maker marked. I can’t remember exactly how, but it was definitely ‘….pore’. I’m tempted to say Ishapore, but believe this to be a subconscious pick based on the rifle factory. More likely is ‘Cawnpore’, not least as I have had other equipment – a mess tin, for example – marked such.

I disposed of them as I couldn’t (cannot) be confident that they weren’t inter-war/ WWII period pieces.

Jonathan:

I think you’re doing well with the skeleton set, as I would consider the tool cover by far the hardest piece to acquire after the braces. Packs of all types are no scarcer than the rest of ’14 (save the frog, and belt).

My motto has always been: acquire each and every piece of ’14 one is ever offered, period. In terms of scarcity I would put the league table (commonest first) as:

1. Frog

2. Belt

3. Water bottle cradle

4. Helve holder (and way easier than the ’08 equivalent)

5. Large pack

6. Pouches

7. Large pack straps

8. Small pack

9. Braces

10. Tool cover.

The packs aren’t especially hard to acquire (well, no more than the rest of it). I recently bought an all webbing large pack off eBay, and have seen small packs – good ones at that – relatively recently. I have also had a good few pairs of the large pack straps over the past few – maybe five – years, and eBay has turned up two pairs for me at reasonable prices. They are not the easiest pieces, but far from being the most difficult.

As for leather dressings, nothing seems to be able to make leather soft again. Apart from the fact that most of them render the leather darker (and one doesn’t like to muck about with the stuff at all, even/ especially colour); they just render it greasy and fatty, with no discernible benefits accruing.

The best any treatment will do is preserve, and prevent further deterioration (having darkened the colour).

Best wishes.

Grovetown.

[Grovetown]

The above pair (of large pack straps) are US made - Cook 1915. The below are British - Lomax Ltd 1914.

[Cymro]

6th - Thanks very much, I'll check the thread. Should have looked first!

Grovetown: Thanks very much indeed for your thoughts on the scarcity of the respective pieces. As soon as I receive my skeleton set, I'll post a picture. I really hope that it's not too dry! I also think you're right when you recommend picking pieces up when you see them. How many times have I regretted not doing so in the past !!! Part of the collecting game I suppose. If the set is ok I'll go for the two packs and the helve carrier/bayonet assembly which I have been also offered subsequently. This would leave only the waterbottle carrier and back pack straps to find. The set won't be as good as the spectacular-condition set you posted, but at least it'll be 'right'. Like I say, I'll post a picture when I receive the items. In the meantime I'll keep an eye out for the straps and the bottle carrier. If you do see any going, I'd be grateful for the heads up...

Many thanks again.

Jonathan

[Grovetown]

Thanks Jonathan

I've been able to build up three-and-a-half sets over the years; now rationalised to the best two. The set below is exceptional: came as a piece (with the exception of the tool cover and large pack), is in very good condition, largely British made and - amazingly - 90% of the pieces are all marked to the same unit.

The second set features the converted pouches and intermediate large pack. This is a put together of largely US (Cook and Simmons Keen Kutter) pieces.

Best wishes,

Grovetown.

[Grovetown]

And the second:

[Cymro]

Grovetown - absolutely superb examples. Well done indeed!!!

The only set I've seen go was in a (well known) auction house a couple of years back, the back pack being stamped up to the 16th RWF. As a Welsh collector why didnt I go for it?

Terminal stupidity.

J