Mounted police cap identify

[Marching no more]

My grandfather was at one point a mounted RP as in the photo attached, he has written "regiment Staffs" on his wedding certificate May 1917, but the photo is dated 1914 , although that may not be accurate. He was purportedly wounded at Gallipoli and I am trying to find out which Staffs yeomanry were there in 1915. He was also sent to Egypt etc in May 1917 , after his marriage in Aldershot. I thought I could determine which unit he was in by the cap badge in the photo, but cannot find one the same. A relative said he was in the North Staffs, but their cap badge is quite different. It is possible he was in two different units, with two different army numbers, but I am not certain the medal card is his, even though it has two service numbers.  Hoping you can help ID the cap badge.

[EDWARD1]

The cap badge looks like  The North Somerset Yeomanry. 9 pointed star GR in centre crown on top and ARNA PACIS FULCRA motto

[FROGSMILE]

He meant Regimental Staff (rather than Regiment Stafford’s) and was referring to his duty as a Regimental Policeman (RP).  The RP were a detachment of usually 8 soldiers (one per company originally but 2 with the four company organisation), under the immediate direction of a sergeant appointed by the Adjutant known as the Provost Sergeant.  Their role was to oversee discipline and minor punishment within their battalion.  They wore an armlet or wristlet, sometimes known by the French description: brassard, with the letters R.P. or R.M.P.  The Provost Sergeant usually carried a stout stick as his visual badge of office.

As the RPs were under the direct control of the Adjutant, assisted by the battalion’s sergeant major, both of whom were members of ‘regimental staff’, the RPs too were a part of that element within their unit.

NB.  The North Somerset Yeomanry were the regiment featured in the film “Warhorse”.

 

Edited 5 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Michelle Young]

Photo rotated and cropped. 

[Acknown]

I query NSY. I cannot find a record of them in Gallipoli or Egypt and it looks to me that the centre of the badge has gaps/holes unlike the NSY badges I can find. That said, I can't do better.

Acknown

Addition: Names/numbers would help.

Edited 3 August , 2022 by Acknown

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, Acknown said:

I query NSY. I cannot find a record of them in Gallipoli or Egypt and it looks to me that the centre of the badge has gaps/holes unlike the NSY badges I can find. That said, I can't do better.

Acknown

It was only the NSY that had a star badge with so many points.  Perhaps he served in the Middle East with a different regiment. 

Edited 3 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Pat Atkins]

7 minutes ago, Acknown said:

I query NSY. I cannot find a record of them in Gallipoli or Egypt and it looks to me that the centre of the badge has gaps/holes unlike the NSY badges I can find. That said, I can't do better.

Acknown

Addition: Names/numbers would help.

I’ve been going round in circles on NSY cap badges, too - for what it’s worth, there’s a voided version here which is labelled WW1, and Frogsmile’s photos back that up. But they didn’t serve in Gallipoli/Egypt as you say.

Agree that names and numbers would help.

[Marching no more]

North Somerset would make more sense as he was a Farmer from that region, and told his son he took his own horse to war. On the wedding certificate, to clarify, it actually states Pte Stafford Regt as far as I can tell . So definitely not Regimental Staff .

The problem I have is the medal card may not be for the right person, so the service number could be a red herring.

Assuming the date of the photo is 1914, then he could easily have been in the NSY. He was wounded at Gallipoli, according to his sons , all dead now, he had shrapnel wounds, and suffered with bits of shrapnel inside him for years, he was left in no mans land for days, and at night the crabs crawled over him, which gave him nightmares later in life. He definitely was sent to middle east, specifically Egypt, on or about 10th May 1917 and did not return until 1919 according to his wife. He suffered from sunstroke a couple of times whilst out there, and came back rather fond of the drink. He then had what we would now call traumatic stress syndrome and ended up in a mental asylum in Wells, 1926 but recovered and went on to live until 1966.

So if he was in the Staffordshire Yeomanry in 1917 did they go to Egypt?    the North Staffs 7th battalion did.

His name was Robert Harold Toogood but as I say, the only service numbers I have may not be his.

Thanks so much for your help so far in identifying the badge.

Edited 3 August , 2022 by Marching no more
addition of thanks !

[battle of loos]

good evening,

wonderful picture.

I research the cap badge & the shoulder title.

michel

[FROGSMILE]

31 minutes ago, Marching no more said:

North Somerset would make more sense as he was a Farmer from that region, and told his son he took his own horse to war. On the wedding certificate, to clarify, it actually states Pte Stafford Regt as far as I can tell . So definitely not Regimental Staff .

The problem I have is the medal card may not be for the right person, so the service number could be a red herring.

Assuming the date of the photo is 1914, then he could easily have been in the NSY. He was wounded at Gallipoli, according to his sons , all dead now, he had shrapnel wounds, and suffered with bits of shrapnel inside him for years, he was left in no mans land for days, and at night the crabs crawled over him, which gave him nightmares later in life. He definitely was sent to middle east, specifically Egypt, on or about 10th May 1917 and did not return until 1919 according to his wife. He suffered from sunstroke a couple of times whilst out there, and came back rather fond of the drink. He then had what we would now call traumatic stress syndrome and ended up in a mental asylum in Wells, 1926 but recovered and went on to live until 1966.

So if he was in the Staffordshire Yeomanry in 1917 did they go to Egypt?    the North Staffs 7th battalion did.

His name was Robert Harold Toogood but as I say, the only service numbers I have may not be his.

Thanks so much for your help so far in identifying the badge.

It’s best to be a bit more precise in what you say if you can.  There was no “Stafford Regiment” so if that was written on a formal wedding certificate, then it’s quite an unusual error. Registrars took pride in the accuracy of their work.  There was the Prince of Wales's (North Staffordshire Regiment), and the South Staffordshire Regiment, each of which had an entirely separate lineage.  You initially said the wording was “Regiment Staffs”.  What does it actually say, in full?

It is entirely possible that he initially served with the North Somerset Yeomanry and then later found himself transferred to either, a different yeomanry regiment, or more likely an infantry battalion following the profound shortages that occurred in the last 2-years of the war.

Edited 3 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Marching no more]

Looking at the wedding certificate, it has everything as it should, and under profession states " Pte Stafford Regt " at least that is what I think it says, the handwriting not being the clearest. Residence Aldershot, it was the Parish Church where the barracks were I believe. The Cap badge proves he was originally in the North Somerset Yeomanry, but if they did not go to Gallipoli, I wonder if as an RP he was sent there, attached to one of the Staffordshire regiments, wounded and repatriated, then returned to service with the same unit when they were in Egypt.

[FROGSMILE]

On 03/08/2022 at 20:06, Marching no more said:

Looking at the wedding certificate, it has everything as it should, and under profession states " Pte Stafford Regt " at least that is what I think it says, the handwriting not being the clearest. Residence Aldershot, it was the Parish Church where the barracks were I believe. The Cap badge proves he was originally in the North Somerset Yeomanry, but if they did not go to Gallipoli, I wonder if as an RP he was sent there, attached to one of the Staffordshire regiments, wounded and repatriated, then returned to service with the same unit when they were in Egypt.

It’s entirely possible that the registrar made an error, but it would be relatively unusual.  The two separate Staffordshire associated regular infantry regiments, each with two regular battalions and numerous militia and rifle volunteer units, and an enormous shared depot in Lichfield, had existed since 1881, so most officials would have known of them.

RPs were appointed domestically within their own units, and had no authority whatsoever outside it.  Each unit furnished its own RPs, this was at a time when there was no Army-wide, unified corps of military police, although small detachments of departmental Military Mounted Police and Military Foot Police existed in the major garrisons like Aldershot and Colchester. They were tiny in numbers and operated routinely in just the garrisons where they were based under the Adjutant General’s Staff.  Conversely, each unit’s RPs went with them wherever they deployed, both at home and overseas.  Ergo it’s not a feasible theorem for Yeomanry RPs to be sent off on attachment to an Infantry battalion, which already had its own discrete RP detachment (which it could change as it wished) as a matter of course.

It is quite probable, though, that he was wounded serving with the North Somerset Yeomanry, or simply left it for some other reason (e.g. sickness) and when fit again found himself posted to another regiment from a base depot.  There were also circumstances in which Yeomanry units (which often had three-lines (duplicates)) were broken up, with detachments then sent to reinforce other units, often but not exclusively of infantry.

Edited 5 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Michelle Young]

Can you post an image of the certificate please? 

[RaySearching]

Here you are

May 1917 aged 21  Pte Stafford Reg !

[Marching no more]

here is a copy of the marriage cert.

[Marching no more]

Ray Searching, That's clever! how is it the box for Rank is different on your copy to mine?  I think mine is the original, but yours has the same handwriting?

[RaySearching]

One handwritten copy for the couple when married

  One hadwritten copy for the registrars  ?

 

Ray

[Marching no more]

So call me dumb if you want , but how do you get a copy of the certificate so easily, when my subs to My Heritage does not get me a copy of the certificates?

[RaySearching]

Marraige cirtificate is on Ancestry

 

Ray

[Marching no more]

Thanks Ray,

I should have gone back there or Find my Past, I guess.

ADMIN :

Sorry if I am straying off Army badges theme, but I would like to research my Grandfathers war service as best I can, and have been asked for service numbers on this thread. I have just found evidence when Robert Harold Toogood was discharged he was with the Royal Warwicshire Regt. No 26959 V/C  whatever that stands for. This confirms to some extent the medal card I have, although the number thereon is 269596 

I can post the medal card and the medal roll from the Warwicks here if ok, or would you prefer me to start another thread on another page?

 

[RaySearching]

I was just looking up the medal rolls as you posted

 

Best to keep everthing on one thread

Ray

[FROGSMILE]

The Staffordshire Yeomanry (Queen's Own Royal Regiment) was a unit of the British Army. Raised in 1794.  It first served overseas at the time of the Second Boer War, followed by distinguished action in Egypt and Palestine in the First World War.

“Staffordshire Yeomanry (Queen's Own Royal Regiment) during WW1

1/1st Staffordshire Yeomanry, after a short period of training at Diss, Norfolk, was ordered to join the Egyptian Expeditionary Force in 1915, sending 1/1st Staffordshire Yeomanry (Queen's Own Royal Regiment) to participate in the Sinai Palestine Campaign at the last minute. They were part of the North Midland Brigade and the orders they originally received ordered them to move to Salonika, arriving in Egypt during November 1915 (Detailed Information is very scarce with regards the regiment’s service, C Squadron definitely deployed, but no information is available or has been located regarding the rest of the Regiment). 

The Regiment was attached to the 22nd Mounted Brigade, Yeomanry Mounted Division in the Sinai and Palestine Campaign against the Ottoman Turkish and German armies. 

It fought in the First Battle of Gaza, Second Battle of Gaza in March and April 1917 and finally won through in the Third Battle of Gaza in October of that year they were then victorious in the decisive and crucial Battle of Beersheba on 6 November 1917, where Allied victory at last left the field open for the capture of Jerusalem on 9 December 1917.
In July 1918 the Division was reformed as the Fourth Cavalry Division under the command of General Allenby and the Regiment played a key role in the decisive Battle of Megiddo (1918).

The 1/1st Staffordshire Yeomanry then went on to joined the Desert Mounted Corps under the Australian General Henry George Chauvel and took part in his strategic cavalry ‘bound’ from the desert through Beisan, a forced march which covered an unheard of, within the cavalry, 87 miles in 33 hours a record in cavalry history. 
During a rest period of 4 days the Regiment took 5,800 prisoners, they joined with the spearhead of the Allies and made a triumphant entry into Damascus on 1 October 1918, 200 men became casualties from malaria during their stay in Damascus.

After a week, the Regiment started on a 200-mile trek to Aleppo, despite the Regiment being reduced to 75 men, Aleppo was captured on 25 October 1918. Turkey surrendered on 30th October 1918.

2/1st Staffordshire Yeomanry (Queen's Own Royal Regiment).

The Regiment formed a Second-Line unit in September 1914 that remained as a Home Defence unit throughout the war. They came under the command of 2/1st North Midland Mounted Brigade from January 1915.

The 2/1st Regiment then moved with the brigade to Norfolk and were placed under the command of 1st Mounted Division, which assumed the responsibilities of 2/1st North Midland Mounted Brigade which was then sent to Salonika.

In July 1916 the Regiment converted into a cyclist unit, and was placed under the command of the 3rd Cyclist Brigade a Brigade under command of the 1st Cyclist Division, in November of that year they reverted back to their original Mounted Role.

In August 1917 they once again re-roled to a cyclist unit, under orders of 12th Cyclist Brigade, the regiment ended the war in Canterbury.”

NB.  If the North Somerset Yeomanry is not a red herring then it seems possible that he served with them at home, probably in connection with a Reserve Cavalry Regiment** and thence to a brigade depot, and presumably onwards to the Staffs Yeomanry via a draft of reinforcements.  

**Corps of Hussars, which might well be the link between the North Somerset and Staffordshire units.  See:

1. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-yeomanry-regiments-of-1914-1918/staffordshire-yeomanry-queens-own-royal-regiment/

2. https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/204372-staffordshire-yeomanry-photographs/

 

Edited 4 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[RaySearching]

 

15 hours ago, Marching no more said:

He then had what we would now call traumatic stress syndrome and ended up in a mental asylum in Wells, 1926 but recovered and went on to live until 1966.

Robert has a W.F.A pension card which indicates he was hospitalised in 1926 as previously stated 

Ray

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, RaySearching said:

 

Robert has a W.F.A pension card which indicates he was hospitalised in 1926 as previously stated 

Ray

Eureka!  Mention of North Somerset Yeomanry for the first time, along with a regimental serial number of 416, and above it record of his transit through a Reserve Cavalry Regiment with number 41739. I’m hoping that someone like @kenf48might be able to pull all this together into a coherent timeline using the regimental numbers.  My pure guesstimate is:

1.  3/1st North Somerset Yeomanry [May 1915] - home.

2. Reserve Cavalry Regiment [corps of Hussars - July 1915] - home (Tidworth).

3.  Reinforcement Depot MEF(?)

4. 1/1st Staffordshire Yeomanry - overseas (Gallipoli and Egypt).

5. 1st Garrison Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment - overseas (Egypt).

Edited 4 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Marching no more]

Wow, that makes some sense, certainly. After the 1/1st Staffs yeomanry there is a number 301515 wondering what that refers to.

I also have a note I made some years ago, so cannot recall where I got from, but  it states: 1st Royal Garrison Battalion was formed in Weymouth Aug 1915 and sent to Egypt and Palestine late 1915.    If Robert went with them, it did not give him much time to recuperate after Gallipoli wounding.  I would love to know where he was hospitalised, or convalesced as this may be where he met his future wife, who knew him by 1916.   It is a bit of a mystery as to how a girl from Ipswich met Robert who lived in Somerset/Wilts.   my dad insisted his mum was a singer in a band, but no one else can confirm that.  I assume either she entertained troops in Suffolk or Colchester, or that she helped nursing wounded.