Turkish Clinometer for Artillery?

[michaeldr]

SS - If I may revert to the 'German' option for a moment - See https://dergipark.org.tr/tr/download/article-file/1499614

page 11 - Table 1. Cannons Purchased from Krupp Company between 1861 and 1907 and their Prices (Türk, 2012);

extracted figs: 1871 = 127, 1873 = 834, 1903 = 98, 1905 = 668, 1907 = 4

page 16 - The purchase of German weapons, which started with Krupp cannons, made German producers the main supplier of Ottoman armament during the period of Abdülhamid II. The close relations of Ottoman Empire with Germany improved with the acceptance of German military systems in 1882. While commissioned German officers placed the Prussian école in the Ottoman army, German arms manufacturers also had a monopoly in the Ottoman market. In this period, almost all weapons, except for sample ones were imported from Germany. Nearly 1 million Mauser rifles, 1918 Krupp cannons and millions of ammunitions belonging to them had an important share in the increase in the Ottoman spending. (end of quote)

What was the system used in Germany at the time the guns were purchased?

Baring in mind the long-term nature of the Ottoman-Krupp relationship and the presence of teams of German 'advisors' (from Goltz Pasha down), then isn't it likely that the Ottomans were using the German system on their Krupp guns?

Edited 10 August , 2022 by michaeldr

[awjdthumper]

I think the MIL scale is about right showing the clinometer reads up to about 20 degrees of elevation. This does seem to point to a smaller calibre field gun rather than an howitzer but, again, I think we are talking about an artillery piece designed before the turn of the 20th century and one that was not fitted with a modern recoil system.  A possible candidate would be the Krupp 87 mm M1885 field gun that was bought in considerable numbers and still used during WW1. It was fitted subsequently with an aiming circle for indirect fire and would have needed a clinometer of the type under discussion to set the elevation of the gun.

 

[shippingsteel]

Yes Michaeldr, it is true the Germans were the major supplier of weaponry to the Ottomans, and I am quite familiar with the way the contract small arms were marked in Germany for the Ottomans.

Which begs the obvious question why did they have to produce their own markings on this Clinometer when the Germans were supplying everything already 'made to order'.

This is why I suggested the Schneider as they happened to confiscate a shipment at a port somewhere at the start of the war, which had been bound for Serbia and made for them under contract.

So these guns would have most likely been marked up in Cyrillic meaning the sights would have needed replacing and marked in the local writing for Turkish use. Just my suggestion, I don't know what system of sighting the Germans were using.

Cheers, SS

[Chasemuseum]

Prior to and during WW1 Turkey was manufacturing artillery, artillery ammunition and presumably some supplies to support artillery. The extent and capability of their manufacturing capability was very limited. For small arms this included barrel manufacture and the rebuilding of old Peabody-Martini rifles into 7.63 Turkish Mauser as second grade weapons, issued to artillery and the like. For the manufacture of artillery - production appears to have  been limited to the 7.5cm mountain gun as a copy of the German weapon.

 

The point being is that the clinometer of the original post may potentially have been manufactured in Turkey, either prior to or during WW1. Similarly it could have been manufactured elsewhere and the markings scrubbed out when the arabic markings were applied. Part of the joy of dealing with Turkish materiel.

[wmfinch]

On 07/08/2022 at 07:32, shippingsteel said:

I have no idea what this item is or actually does, but I do believe it could be of Turkish origin based on the style of Arabic script. I did some of the simpler translations which look a little familiar to me.

In the first photo there is a graduated sliding rule which reads from 0 - 6320 metres in Arabic numerals. It is stamped with the word Metre.

The second photo is a closeup of the above showing from 6000 - 6320 metres, with the inscription which reads Metre. I have also seen this stamped on Turkish Mauser rifle sights.

In the third photo we see another sliding rule graduated from 210 - 250 - 300 - 350 in Arabic numerals. I haven't translated that inscription yet.

The larger stamping in the "makers mark" style indicates to me that it is related to the Tophane foundry, which was the major Ottoman arsenal located in Istanbul.  Hope this info helps.

Cheers, SS

That is really useful …. Thank you so much 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

[wmfinch]

On 10/08/2022 at 23:35, Chasemuseum said:

Prior to and during WW1 Turkey was manufacturing artillery, artillery ammunition and presumably some supplies to support artillery. The extent and capability of their manufacturing capability was very limited. For small arms this included barrel manufacture and the rebuilding of old Peabody-Martini rifles into 7.63 Turkish Mauser as second grade weapons, issued to artillery and the like. For the manufacture of artillery - production appears to have  been limited to the 7.5cm mountain gun as a copy of the German weapon.

 

The point being is that the clinometer of the original post may potentially have been manufactured in Turkey, either prior to or during WW1. Similarly it could have been manufactured elsewhere and the markings scrubbed out when the arabic markings were applied. Part of the joy of dealing with Turkish materiel.

Thank you so much for the info!  As you say …. It’s confusing but is an interesting piece 👍👍👍👍

On 10/08/2022 at 15:11, awjdthumper said:

I think the MIL scale is about right showing the clinometer reads up to about 20 degrees of elevation. This does seem to point to a smaller calibre field gun rather than an howitzer but, again, I think we are talking about an artillery piece designed before the turn of the 20th century and one that was not fitted with a modern recoil system.  A possible candidate would be the Krupp 87 mm M1885 field gun that was bought in considerable numbers and still used during WW1. It was fitted subsequently with an aiming circle for indirect fire and would have needed a clinometer of the type under discussion to set the elevation of the gun.

 

Amazing info …. Very much appreciated 👍👍