Mystery turret / telescope / guns

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

Very true, but they had also had an important secondary role to play when the ship was away from land and the ship’s company was closed up for action stations - they were required to man one of the turrets. Mostly trained RMA in the turret crew and RMLI for ammunition handling.

MB

We seem to be slightly at cross purposes - I’m well aware that they manned X-turret, you’ll see that I specifically mentioned that previously.  My point was purely that the role to man one turret doesn’t make the RMA responsible for all gunnery, as was stated by ‘CharlesPeter’.

Edited 2 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[KizmeRD]

I think it’s fairly evident that Royal Marines were never responsible for ALL naval gunnery aboard major warships, only the manning of one turret, as previously stated.

MB

[FROGSMILE]

37 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

I think it’s fairly evident that Royal Marines were never responsible for ALL naval gunnery aboard major warships…

Yes, that’s exactly how I see it too.

Edited 2 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[pb43]

4 hours ago, CharlesPeter said:

The Royal Marine Artillery were responsible for gunnery aboard ship and so their depots had practice batteries ashore to teach the skills necessary.  This image  is an earlier example to the turret at Eastney  and located at their barracks in Chatham, Kent

Any chance of a link that works?

[Gunner 87]

5 minutes ago, pb43 said:

Any chance of a link that works?

Sorry pb43, it worked from this end. I have just copied it from the site ..... https://rmhistorical.com/DAPShowFile.php?id=1931

or to the home page https://rmhistorical.com/home

Edited 2 August , 2022 by Gunner 87

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Gunner 87 said:

Sorry pb43, it worked from this end. I have just copied it from the site ..... https://rmhistorical.com/DAPShowFile.php?id=1931

or to the home page https://rmhistorical.com/home

It works consistently well for me.  Perhaps pb43 is out of country?

[RaySearching]

Well done Gunner  for finding the original image 

spent the best part of an evening some days ago trying to locate it, to no avail

I was way of the mark with my suggestion 

regards Ray

[KizmeRD]

Here’s another image of the 12” drill turret (sorry not great quality).

MB

[CharlesPeter]

Here is the answer to what happened to this drill gun turret from Portsmouth Evening News 1958.

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, CharlesPeter said:

Here is the answer to what happened to this drill gun turret from Portsmouth Evening News 1958.

Thank you, it’s really interesting to learn of the turret’s eventual fate in 1958.  I’ve managed to get the general gist of it I think, but found the print too small/indistinct to read with confidence.

[CharlesPeter]

I hope this is better. The text describes the shell being loaded conventionally and then pushed along the barrel to be recovered for re-use. 

Also two more turrets from 1917 at Whale Island (also at Portsmouth)

Whale Island drill turrets Illustrated war News 21 Feb 1917 a.pdf Whale Island drill turrets Illustrated War News 21 Feb1917 b.pdf

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, CharlesPeter said:

I hope this is better. The text describes the shell being loaded conventionally and then pushed along the barrel to be recovered for re-use. 

Also two more turrets from 1917 at Whale Island (also at Portsmouth)

Whale Island drill turrets Illustrated war News 21 Feb 1917 a.pdf 203.24 kB · 1 download Whale Island drill turrets Illustrated War News 21 Feb1917 b.pdf 435.11 kB · 1 download

Thank you, yes, it’s much clearer.  Especially interesting to learn of the way each loaded shell was recovered down a chute.  I have used drill weapons of a similar design for instruction in loading and firing, myself.  It helps to explain further the several purposes (it seems) of the superstructure beneath the barrels.

Edited 4 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[CharlesPeter]

Both locations have a similar brick built single storey structure adjacent and I guess this may have housed the steam engine to work the mechanisms.

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, CharlesPeter said:

Both locations have a similar brick built single storey structure adjacent and I guess this may have housed the steam engine to work the mechanisms.

Yes that makes sense, I was wondering how the simulated recoil would have worked beyond the simple hydraulics element of it.

Edited 4 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[KizmeRD]

It doesn’t look to me like the site of the old drill turret was in the direct vicinity of Eastney Barracks itself,- could it be that the RMA Artillery Training Wing based themselves slightly away from the barracks, possibly at Fraser Range? Anyone from Pompey care to comment?

MB

Edited 4 August , 2022 by KizmeRD

[Interested]

At least we now know that the windows actually opened, and weren't painted on.

Wonderful topic - every day's a school day...

[horatio2]

The Instructional Turret was part of the Sea Service Battery at Eastney. It was situated just to the west of where the Fort Cumberland car park is today, between the old RM Museum (Officers' Mess) and Fort Cumberland.

"Perhaps the most spectacular addition to the sea service batteries was a huge two storey 'ships' gun turret constructed in 1912. It mounted two different types of 12-inch gun; the right gun was of the Mark IX type used in the HMS IRRESISTIBLE class of battleship, while the left gun was a version of of the Mark IX used in the HMS KING EDWARD VII class warships. To add realism, the turret traversed and would 'pitch and roll' to simulate the movement of a ship, the whole structure being powered by a steam engine salvaged from the old battleship hMS COLOSSUS (1886-1908). The turret would have two gun-layers teaching eight men per gun and shells would be brought up on proper hoists, rammed into the barrel, and the breech closed. After 'firing,' the hsell was manually pushed along the barrel until it dropped through a special aperture into the distinctive retrieval shute and was fed back to the magazine ready for the next practice. The breechesof the guns were later modified to simulate 15 inch guns, and for many Royal Marines over the next forty or so years, it became known as the 'home of the screaming skulls." ["Sea Soldiers of Portsmouth", John Ambler & Matthew Little, 2008]

Edited 4 August , 2022 by horatio2

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, horatio2 said:

The Instructional Turret was part of the Sea Service Battery at Eastney. It was situated just to the west of where the Fort Cumberland car park is today, between the old RM Museum (Officers' Mess) and Fort Cumberland.

"Perhaps the most spectacular addition to the sea service batteries was a huge two storey 'ships' gun turret constructed in 1912. It mounted two different types of 12-inch gun; the right gun was of the Mark IX type used in the HMS IRRESISTIBLE class of battleship, while the left gun was a version of of the Mark IX used in the HMS KING EDWARD VII class warships. To add realism, the turret traversed and would 'pitch and roll' to simulate the movement of a ship, the whole structure being powered by a steam engine salvaged from the old battleship hMS COLOSSUS (1886-1908). The turret would have two gun-layers teaching eight men per gun and shells would be brought up on proper hoists, rammed into the barrel, and the breech closed. After 'firing,' the hsell was manually pushed along the barrel until it dropped through a special aperture into the distinctive retrieval shute and was fed back to the magazine ready for the next practice. The breechesof the guns were later modified to simulate 15 inch guns, and for many Royal Marines over the next forty or so years, it became known as the 'home of the screaming skulls. ["Sea Soldiers of Portsmouth", John Ambler & Matthew Little, 2008]

That very neatly summarises things I think, thank you.  It’s been a really interesting topic.

Edited 4 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

Yes. Not contributed but what an interesting thread. Thanks. 

Charlie

[CharlesPeter]

Whale Island had not just dummy turrets but also dummy ships to fire at (image from ILN 21.11.1914)

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, CharlesPeter said:

Whale Island had not just dummy turrets but also dummy ships to fire at (image from ILN 21.11.1914)

Very interesting to see.  They remind me of the rail mounted targets (usually triples) that used to run along the mantlet of the best gallery ranges, and at which machine gun and section fire was directed.  I assume those ship targets ran down to sea level?

Edited 8 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[MrEd]

On 04/08/2022 at 17:12, KizmeRD said:

It doesn’t look to me like the site of the old drill turret was in the direct vicinity of Eastney Barracks itself,- could it be that the RMA Artillery Training Wing based themselves slightly away from the barracks, possibly at Fraser Range? Anyone from Pompey care to comment?

MB

There is a huge square concrete pad at the far end of Fraser range probably 10m x 10m and also a smaller circular pad in the middle of the site - I wonder if either of them could have been the base of a training gun? i wonder if anything shows up on old maps (probably not as was MOD property)

 

[CharlesPeter]

I live no where near Portsmouth but I am thinking that the turret is probably the circular structure shown on the 1930s OS maps - see below. This is logical as part of the Sea Service Battery and I think the rectangular structure next to it fits with the brick building as seen in the photo that first launched this thread. If so, this part of the Eastney/Fort Cumberland complex has been built over for houses. FS is for flagstaff

[KizmeRD]

Yes, I think you’ve nailed it, well done.

MB

[horatio2]

1 hour ago, CharlesPeter said:

I am thinking that the turret is probably the circular structure shown on the 1930s OS maps

Correct, just north of "ice" of "Sea Service Battery". A 1955 image of the area [courtesy "Sea Soldiers of Portsmouth"]:-

Edited 9 August , 2022 by horatio2