Worcestershire regiment red frock/jacket.

[Dave66]

Evening all,

A pal has a habit of buying random militara and really isn’t sure on this jacket, so I am posting this on his behalf.

Its a private purchase jacket by hawkes, extremely good quality with little moth damage so it’s been looked after over the years. Name tag has M Freeman esq, so presume young gent as opposed to other ranks. I can find only one M Freeman, a Max Freeman first mentioned in the gazette in 1907/1908 as a 2nd lt,  he later ends up Lt Col…the only thing that throws me is the number above his name.

No expert on uniforms apart from the basics, but what can the experts see from the pics below, would it tie in with a young prewar max or a mess jacket later on….could even be a bandsman’s jacket for all I know….any help appreciated.

Dave.

[FROGSMILE]

Superb full dress tunic for a subaltern (second lieutenant) circa 1890s.  Privately purchased, as with all officers, it has subaltern cuff lace (pre 1902 cuff lace differed for each of four rank levels).  The second lieutenant during that same period had no rank stars on his shoulder straps, a full lieutenant had one and a captain had two.  The full dress tunic was the best uniform and used for:

1. ‘review order’ (ceremonial parading with troops).

2. ‘duty officer’ (after tattoo).

3. ‘levee order’ (in presence of Royal family - but with different trousers and sash).

NB.  It is not used for mess dress, for which a short jacket, worn open, was decreed.  After 1902 all officers adopted the simplest cuff lace formerly used by subalterns.  The buttons on the tunic apply to post 1902, which indicates that rank stars have probably been removed from the twisted shoulder cords.

Edited 28 July , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Andrew Upton]

11 minutes ago, Dave66 said:

...I can find only one M Freeman, a Max Freeman first mentioned in the gazette in 1907/1908 as a 2nd lt,  he later ends up Lt Col…the only thing that throws me is the number above his name.

No expert on uniforms apart from the basics, but what can the experts see from the pics below, would it tie in with a young prewar max or a mess jacket later on….could even be a bandsman’s jacket for all I know….any help appreciated.

It is an scarlet full-dress tunic to an officer in the Worcestershire Regiment typical of the pre-WW1 period, so with that name the attribution you have found looks a perfect match. As to the number this is a typical tailoring thing of the period, and likely relates to the order number (or similar) for when the jacket was made, so not a service number etc.

[Dave66]

Thank you both very much for your reassuring and thorough replies, if I had room I’d be trying to gently persuade him to part with it…I’ve had fun doing the research.

Dave.

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Dave66 said:

Thank you both very much for your reassuring and thorough replies, if I had room I’d be trying to gently persuade him to part with it…I’ve had fun doing the research.

Dave.

Researching the history of the tailor (address and precise style of label) might help with dating.  Bear in mind that it might be a 1890s tunic to which post 1902 buttons have been fitted.  After the old Queen died all forms of insignia bearing a crown were changed.

Edited 28 July , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Dave66]

8 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Researching the history of the tailor (address and precise style of label) might help with dating.  Bear in mind that it might be a 1890s tunic to which post 1902 buttons have been fitted.  After the old Queen died all forms of insignia bearing a crown were changed.

Thanks FROGSMILE, I appreciate your help.

Dave.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Dave66 said:

Thanks FROGSMILE, I appreciate your help.

Dave.

“Hawkes” were one of the upper echelon of military tailors used by Army officers until  they eventually merged with the Royal Navy’s equivalent, “Gieves”. 

Edited 28 July , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Dave66]

The hawkes label dates it pre 1911, when they moved to Saville row…but I can find very few hawkes examples to compare it with,. Had a decent trawl through the gazette and unable to find any other earlier candidate either so must have been young 21 year old max in 1907 using an older but updated tunic…remarkable survivor in that condition, the only fault I could see is one of the two piece collar badges is missing a small part.

Thanks all,

Dave.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Dave66 said:

The hawkes label dates it pre 1911, when they moved to Saville row…but I can find very few hawkes examples to compare it with,. Had a decent trawl through the gazette and unable to find any other earlier candidate either so must have been young 21 year old max in 1907 using an older but updated tunic…remarkable survivor in that condition, the only fault I could see is one of the two piece collar badges is missing a small part.

Thanks all,

Dave.

Yes I agree with your conclusions.  It’s a remarkably fine tunic.  The Worcestershire Regiment facings were white from 1881 till 1920, whence they became green in honour of the 2nd battalion’s (old 36th) heritage. 

Edited 28 July , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Jerry B]

Perhaps I am wrong, but I thought the tail is from the 1902? Pattern

[FROGSMILE]

15 hours ago, Jerry B said:

Perhaps I am wrong, but I thought the tail is from the 1902? Pattern

Yes it is.  I think the initial debate was that it was possibly an older tunic brought up to date (due to the pristine and bare shoulder cords), which as well as adding the new buttons would’ve required retrofitting the new [1902] rear with ‘slashed’ flaps**.  It was why dating it via the makers label, etc. (if possible) was so crucial.  The absence of rank stars suggested that either they were never there, or were removed subsequently (which in hindsight seemed more likely).

**the collar was also made a little taller at the same time.

 

Edited 9 August , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[PyroraptorOlympius1945]

On 28/07/2022 at 19:02, Dave66 said:

Evening all,

A pal has a habit of buying random militara and really isn’t sure on this jacket, so I am posting this on his behalf.

Its a private purchase jacket by hawkes, extremely good quality with little moth damage so it’s been looked after over the years. Name tag has M Freeman esq, so presume young gent as opposed to other ranks. I can find only one M Freeman, a Max Freeman first mentioned in the gazette in 1907/1908 as a 2nd lt,  he later ends up Lt Col…the only thing that throws me is the number above his name.

No expert on uniforms apart from the basics, but what can the experts see from the pics below, would it tie in with a young prewar max or a mess jacket later on….could even be a bandsman’s jacket for all I know….any help appreciated.

Dave.

Hi Dave, 

 

This beautiful piece is now in my ownership with thanks to Mark. Max Freeman's tunic is one of many memorial pieces of mine for the Worcestershire Regiment. Having researched his service, I would like to find out more about his personal life.

[Dave66]

3 minutes ago, PyroraptorOlympius1945 said:

Hi Dave, 

 

This beautiful piece is now in my ownership with thanks to Mark. Max Freeman's tunic is one of many memorial pieces of mine for the Worcestershire Regiment. Having researched his service, I would like to find out more about his personal life.

I’m so pleased it actually went to someone who would appreciate the quality and history, I seriously considered it myself hence this thread, but the practicality of storing something like this safely was beyond me. London gazette is the first place to start, you have his name, regiment etc and should be able to trace his entire military career via that…link below….If you need any further help, just pop down the market…I’m usually found drinking his coffee and putting the world to rights😀.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk
 

Best wishes,

 Dave.

[Gardenerbill]

The stitching on of the Hawkes label looks a bit untidy, is that usual?

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, Gardenerbill said:

The stitching on of the Hawkes label looks a bit untidy, is that usual?

Yes I’ve certainly seen plenty like that.  It’s on the inside rather than on display and, in a most utilitarian way, intended purely to link the garment with the order number and name of the customer.  It’s been tacked on, but very securely.

Edited 25 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Gardenerbill]

Perhaps it was a task commonly carried out by a trainee (apprentice) taylor.

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, Gardenerbill said:

Perhaps it was a task commonly carried out by a trainee (apprentice) taylor.

Yes I suspect that’s very probable, but I think it would have been a fairly hasty process, perhaps along with a number of other mundane but important jobs. 

Edited 25 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE