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Remembered Today:

Abbreviation of WD.


Mick M

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In the war diary of 1/8th (Ardwick) Battalion there is a number of entries listing casualties but separately mentions;

"(Additional casualty listings from other sources)

                                  Killed                    wounded                      missing

                                O      OR                     O      OR                       O       OR

42nd WD                1      10                      6       130                   0         29

 

What was 42nd WD? 

(The original is not available at NA it is held by a museum....this is an extract from a typed transcript I have found on line, it seems very accurate though).

 

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Also just found an entry for 22.4.18 as below, could this be the tank in the Picture Chris Baker has used for the Manchester Regiment on the LLT?

Screenshot_20220724-224144_Word.jpg

Screenshot_20220724-224248_Chrome.jpg

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Is the Ardwick Battalion also the 1/8 Manchesters of 42nd division?

42nd WD could be the total wounded etc. for the division.

TNA have diaries for 1/8 Manchesters from March 1917.

TEW

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9 hours ago, TEW said:

Is the Ardwick Battalion also the 1/8 Manchesters of 42nd division?

42nd WD could be the total wounded etc. for the division.

TNA have diaries for 1/8 Manchesters from March 1917.

TEW

Thanks, that makes sense.

Unfortunately it's not available at NA...

 

Mick.

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11 minutes ago, Mick M said:

Thanks, that makes sense.

Unfortunately it's not available at NA...

 

Mick.

Sorry duff gen...the  one at TNA ends January 1918, the one I need from Feb on is not....

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These are the TNA refs for 1/8 Manchesters for France from March 1917.

WO 95/2661/2 & WO 95/2657/2.

Are these not correct?

TEW

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11 hours ago, TEW said:

Is the Ardwick Battalion also the 1/8 Manchesters of 42nd division?

42nd WD could be the total wounded etc. for the division.

TNA have diaries for 1/8 Manchesters from March 1917.

TEW

 

11 hours ago, Mick M said:

In the war diary of 1/8th (Ardwick) Battalion there is a number of entries listing casualties but separately mentions;

"(Additional casualty listings from other sources)

                                  Killed                    wounded                      missing

                                O      OR                     O      OR                       O       OR

42nd WD                1      10                      6       130                   0         29

 

What was 42nd WD? 

(The original is not available at NA it is held by a museum....this is an extract from a typed transcript I have found on line, it seems very accurate though).

 

As TEW suggests - “42nd WD” = 42nd Div War Diary I think, which seemingly chimes with the written caveat: “additional casualty listings from other sources”, or have I perhaps misinterpreted that latter aspect?

Edited by FROGSMILE
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1 hour ago, TEW said:

These are the TNA refs for 1/8 Manchesters for France from March 1917.

WO 95/2661/2 & WO 95/2657/2.

Are these not correct?

TEW

Yes that's correct, when I looked the 2nd part was not available but held by a museum in Machester, I think, not available on line but someone had transcribed it on line which is what I'm working from. I've made some checks for veracity such as personnel and it seems accurate.

(Sorry for delays I'm not getting notifications so am having to revisit posts)

Mick.

 

 

14 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

As TEW suggests - “42nd WD” = 42nd Div War Diary I think, which seemingly chimes with the written caveat: “additional casualty listings from other sources”, or have I perhaps misinterpreted that latter aspect?

No I think that is spot on thanks. 

Mick.

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Both parts of the France diaries are downloadable from TNA.

TEW

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34 minutes ago, TEW said:

Both parts of the France diaries are downloadable from TNA.

TEW

I'm obviously looking in wring place then it shows the diary in possession of Tameside study group...I'll try again...thanks.

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The 42nd WD reference is from the war diary of the  42nd Division Headquarters Adjutant and Quarter-Master General

WO 95/2647/1

The 42nd WD is the short form used throughout the transcription, and the first usage of it (May 1917)  states the full above war diary reference. All casualities listed 42nd WD are specifically for the 1/8th Manchesters listed in the 42nd WD monthly casualty list.  As also noted on that first use: "Discrepancies can and do exist between the casualty listings of the battalion, brigade, and division reports. These may be the result of errors or omissions in recording at the battalion level, the timing and reporting protocol to the higher levels of command, possible transcription errors, or when the totals were tabulated which could include further investigations or corrections not included in lower, or higher, levels of command at the time the listings were entered in the war diaries." 

 

See the website https://www.execulink.com/~kbrannen/wdindex.htm

And yes, I am the one who did the transcription. 

 

Edited by Keith Brannen
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1 hour ago, Keith Brannen said:

The 42nd WD reference is from the war diary of the  42nd Division Headquarters Adjutant and Quarter-Master General

WO 95/2647/1

The 42nd WD is the short form used throughout the transcription, and the first usage of it (May 1917)  states the full above war diary reference. All casualities listed 42nd WD are specifically for the 1/8th Manchesters listed in the 42nd WD monthly casualty list.  As also noted on that first use: "Discrepancies can and do exist between the casualty listings of the battalion, brigade, and division reports. These may be the result of errors or omissions in recording at the battalion level, the timing and reporting protocol to the higher levels of command, possible transcription errors, or when the totals were tabulated which could include further investigations or corrections not included in lower, or higher, levels of command at the time the listings were entered in the war diaries." 

 

See the website https://www.execulink.com/~kbrannen/wdindex.htm

And yes, I am the one who did the transcription. 

 

Thanks Keith, it's really useful and a lot easier to read.

As a matter of interest, is the 42WD likely to be more accurate?

 

Mick.

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15 minutes ago, Mick M said:

Thanks Keith, it's really useful and a lot easier to read.

As a matter of interest, is the 42WD likely to be more accurate?

 

Mick.

That is the question! I have no idea (hence my rather convoluted note) which is more accurate, as sometimes none of the three, battalion, brigade, or division, agree totally with the others! I would hope the division would be more accurate, but I think it all depends on when the reporting was passed up to higher levels, and definitely can see where errors could occur, or , for example, further information (such as those missing, or died of wounds) could have been updated after the passage of initial reports (such as a fews day later) . Alas, there are too many possible variations that could result in the discrepancies seen. 

One of the reasons I included both the brigade (where available) and division listings was the lack of details (at times) in the battalion listing (sometimes there was no listings at all).

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2 hours ago, Keith Brannen said:

That is the question! I have no idea (hence my rather convoluted note) which is more accurate, as sometimes none of the three, battalion, brigade, or division, agree totally with the others! I would hope the division would be more accurate, but I think it all depends on when the reporting was passed up to higher levels, and definitely can see where errors could occur, or , for example, further information (such as those missing, or died of wounds) could have been updated after the passage of initial reports (such as a fews day later) . Alas, there are too many possible variations that could result in the discrepancies seen. 

One of the reasons I included both the brigade (where available) and division listings was the lack of details (at times) in the battalion listing (sometimes there was no listings at all).

That's great thank you, another difficulty during the period I am looking at is there is no mention of replacements. The casualties include huge numbers sick to hospital...obviously flu, but some would have returned when they recovered....

However it's a great guideline thank you.

 

Mick.

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34 minutes ago, Mick M said:

That's great thank you, another difficulty during the period I am looking at is there is no mention of replacements. The casualties include huge numbers sick to hospital...obviously flu, but some would have returned when they recovered....

However it's a great guideline thank you.

 

Mick.

Unfortunately, there was very litttle mentioned at all in any of the war diaries about replacements.

As far as those sent sick to hospital, I assume it would depend on where they were sent (I have seen some who only went as far as the CCS for a few days before returning to duty), as well as long they were sick, as to whether they returned to their unit or not.  I do have service records where men went sick to hospital (or other ailments or injuries)  and are listed as returning to their units afterwards, so assume that most did so. However, some who may have been sent on to England, and depending on the length of their stay there, may not have. 

With the lack of service records for the majority, and the sparse hospital and Casualty Clearing Station records, it is hard to determine.

As far as the person you are looking for, I would imagine that if the Medal Roll does not indicate another unit, then he returned to the 1/8th. Of course, it depends on how late in the war he got sick. For example, my grandfather (Not Yet Diagnosed Pyrexia) went to the CCS on October 15th, then four days later was on an Ambulance train to Dannes-Camiers, and then (don't know the time frame, only know from what he told me) was sent to England, and never re-joined his unit (the war was obviously over by the time he fully recovered).

Glad you enjoyed the transcript, it was a lot of work, but well worth the effort just to get an idea of where and what my grandfather experienced.

 

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