Martin Finn - 407/645355 RFA TF

[Persimmon]

Having recently joined I posted a thread on information on my paternal grandfather - Denis Daly and as it developed, also his three other serving brothers in the Great War. 

Looking at my maternal grandmother she had a brother who served in the Royal Field Artillery as a driver. 

I know he was part of the 106 Brigade but other than his rank and section I have very little information about his service and where they served in the France campaigns  

if anyone has any info on this group or any individuals who served in the 106 Brigade it would be good to hear from you.

Whilst I had family information on the Daly side, as my maternal grandmother died before I was born I had little family information other than a postcard picture of my grandmothers younger brother in uniform and some written personal details on the back. 

I did try to use some basic software to tidy the picture up a little - 

Having now done some basic research I have found his medal record card which shows his initial and revised service numbers.

Service number - 407

Revised service number - 645355

 

In addition I have found a few other postcard pictures of Martin Finn. One is taken in a photography studio with three other soldiers - funny how they have all holding their cigarettes - and another postcard group shot of he and his approx 30 fellow soldiers outside a building somewhere in France. 

Not sure if any members here had family members in the 106th RFA but if so perhaps they might recognise a face. 

I know I would love to have group pictures of the Daly brothers in uniform so if I can help another member finding a family member that would be great.

He was born in 1898 and joined up earlier and young in the RFA as a driver. 

As I understand this is someone who drives the teams of horses which pulled the guns.  

I do also have this boyhood studio picture of him. He is still young looking in his soldier uniform ! 

[ianjonesncl]

106 (CVI)  Brigade Royal Field Artillery were part of the 24th Divisional Artillery and reamined with the Division throughout their time on the Western Front.

Information on the Division's actions can be found on the Long Long Trail

24th Division - The Long, Long Trail (longlongtrail.co.uk)

Detail information on their movements will be contained in their war diary which can be downloaded on line. Currently free if you register.

106 Brigade Royal Field Artillery | The National Archives

Reference: WO 95/2197/3

Description: 106 Brigade Royal Field Artillery

Date: 1915 Sept. - 1919 May

[Persimmon]

Ian 

Thank you for the links. 

I will download/review the diary. 

I need to try and see if I can figure out when he shipped over to France. 

Given that he has two service numbers that would suggest I believe he signed up early and then in 1917 the service numbers were revised. 

As he was just 16 in 1914 and he has TF on his record card would that mean he was on duty at home in Scotland until he reached 18 years old in 1916 and then was shipped over to France ?  

Of course that could be completely nonsense but I wonder if there is a way to check ? 

[RussT]

4 minutes ago, Persimmon said:

As he was just 16 in 1914 and he has TF on his record card would that mean he was on duty at home in Scotland until he reached 18 years old in 1916 and then was shipped over to France ?  

Of course that could be completely nonsense but I wonder if there is a way to check ? 

We know he did not serve overseas in an active area of operations before 1916 because his MIC tells us he was not entitled to a 1914/1915 Star Medal (and there is no other MIC for this man either)

Regards

Russ

[Persimmon]

2 minutes ago, RussT said:

We know he did not serve overseas in an active area of operations before 1916 because his MIC tells us he was not entitled to a 1914/1915 Star Medal (and there is no other MIC for this man either)

Regards

Russ

Thanks Russ

So obvious now when you point that out about the lack of a 1914/15 Star. Another rookie error on my part for not working that one out ! 

[RussT]

As per this linked page, his 6-digit TF re-number (645355) indicates he was (at least originally) a member of either the 51st or 64th Divisional Ammunition Column:

Renumbering of the TF artillery in 1917 - The Long, Long Trail (longlongtrail.co.uk)

One could look for records of men with similar numbers to learn more and to estimate when he enlisted.

Regards

Russ

[Matlock1418]

55 minutes ago, Persimmon said:

Photographer appears to have been in Köln [Cologne] - suggests British Army of Occupation period I would presume.

56 minutes ago, Persimmon said:

Overseas chevrons on the Gunner on left of photo [as viewed] - suggests post Army Order 4 of 1918, which was published on 20 December 1917.

Finn is wearing a wound stripe.

M

 

[RussT]

William Evans, who had the numbers 406/645354 - i.e. one digit less than those for Finn - joined mid August 1915.

Regards

Russ

 

[RussT]

William Evan's Attestation Paper E502

 

[RussT]

And his Service Sheet, which might allow you to conclude the movements in the early stages (at least) of Finn's service.

Regards

Russ

 

[Persimmon]

8 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Photographer appears to have been in Köln [Cologne] - suggests British Army of Occupation period I would presume.

Overseas chevrons on the Gunner on left of photo [as viewed] - suggests post Army Order 4 of 1918, which was published on 20 December 1917.

Finn is wearing a wound stripe.

M

 

Thank you for that information. 

I was so interested on the subject of picture I never care enough consideration to the photograph studio where it was taken. 

I have never heard of wound stripes so that useful to know and I can see it now on the sleeve. 

[Matlock1418]

Just now, Persimmon said:

I have never heard of wound stripes so that useful to know and I can see it now on the sleeve. 

To be able to wear a wound stripe he should be listed on a published Casualty List - typically approx. a month or so after the wounding.

M

[Persimmon]

5 minutes ago, RussT said:

And his Service Sheet, which might allow you to conclude the movements in the early stages (at least) of Finn's service.

Regards

Russ

 

Russ

Thank you for the link to William Evans. Given the closeness of his number being part of the 51st Divisional Ammunition Column and his service role - driver (like my great uncle Martin Finn) his journey to France may well be similar/identical 

Alan

[Persimmon]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

To be able to wear a wound stripe he should be listed on a published Casualty List - typically approx. a month or so after the wounding.

M

Thanks for that suggestion. I have located the Admissions and Discharge Book and found that he was placed in Catterick Military Hospital on 22nd February 1917 with Pneumonia and was there until 6th April 1917 when he returned to the ranks.

Now I know whether that qualifies for a stripe on his arm or whether I need to keep digging !

Alan

[Persimmon]

1 hour ago, Persimmon said:

Russ

Thank you for the link to William Evans. Given the closeness of his number being part of the 51st Divisional Ammunition Column and his service role - driver (like my great uncle Martin Finn) his journey to France may well be similar/identical 

Alan

 

1 hour ago, RussT said:

And his Service Sheet, which might allow you to conclude the movements in the early stages (at least) of Finn's service.

Regards

Russ

 

Russ 

Having found a hospital report - see above post - dating to February 1917 where his service history length is listed as 1 year 6 months that would tie in perfectly with the August 1915 join up date suggested by you re the closeness of William Evan’s original service number. 

[Matlock1418]

22 minutes ago, Persimmon said:

I have located the Admissions and Discharge Book and found that he was placed in Catterick Military Hospital on 22nd February 1917 with Pneumonia and was there until 6th April 1917 when he returned to the ranks.

Now I know whether that qualifies for a stripe on his arm or whether I need to keep digging !

I would have thought pneumonia in the UK would not qualify - unless it was perhaps a consequence of "Wound - Gas". ???

Think you probably need someone who has access to Casualty Lists and is skilled at searching - I think the answer is most likely there.

M

Edited 24 July , 2022 by Matlock1418
qualify

[EastSurrey]

The excellent diary of the officer who commanded 106th Brigade (Lt. Col. the Hon. Ralph Hamilton)was published as 'The war diary of the Master of Belhaven' in 1924, and has since been reprinted by N&M. It is a fine book. Sadly the author was killed in March 1918.

Michael

[Persimmon]

20 minutes ago, EastSurrey said:

The excellent diary of the officer who commanded 106th Brigade (Lt. Col. the Hon. Ralph Hamilton)was published as 'The war diary of the Master of Belhaven' in 1924, and has since been reprinted by N&M. It is a fine book. Sadly the author was killed in March 1918.

Michael

Thanks for the info on the book. I have found it online but it does seem he commanded the 108th and not the 106th  

Still it looks a good book to read so I will source it  

Alan

Alan 

[EastSurrey]

The book's preface says he was killed commanding 106th Brigade, so perhaps he was with 108th earlier. There are some other fine published memoirs/diaries/studies from 24th Division veterans: Hitchcock's 'Stand To' (2/Leinster); 'Frontline Medic' (Pirie MO to 9/E. Surrey), Potter's 'Scarce heard amid the guns' (24th Division staff), Lord Moran's 'The Anatomy of Courage' (MO 1/R Fusiliers). There are also accounts by infantry ORs in the WFA's 'Stand To!'- Carpenter (8/Buffs), Billman (9/East Surrey.) Unfortunately, I can't think of any accounts by 24th Division RFA ORs.

Michael

[Persimmon]

5 minutes ago, EastSurrey said:

The book's preface says he was killed commanding 106th Brigade, so perhaps he was with 108th earlier. There are some other fine published memoirs/diaries/studies from 24th Division veterans: Hitchcock's 'Stand To' (2/Leinster); 'Frontline Medic' (Pirie MO to 9/E. Surrey), Potter's 'Scarce heard amid the guns' (24th Division staff), Lord Moran's 'The Anatomy of Courage' (MO 1/R Fusiliers). There are also accounts by infantry ORs in the WFA's 'Stand To!'- Carpenter (8/Buffs), Billman (9/East Surrey.) Unfortunately, I can't think of any accounts by 24th Division RFA ORs.

Michael

Thanks for the guidance Michael. 

When I read the review on Amazon it only mentioned the 108th. Thank goodness that someone has the book to make it clearer ...

"The author of this diary is an artillery officer who served on the Western Front from 1 September 1915 till his death in action on 31st March 1918, and it is one of the best, ranking alongside Old Soldiers Never Die and The Journal of Private Fraser. Following two brief spells in 1914/1915 with the BEF during the first of which he was injured when his horse fell on him, he arrived in France on 1st September 1915 as OC ‘C’ Battery, 108 Brigade RFA, 24th Division and before the end of the month he was in the thick of it at Loos. His description of the scene is graphic. He writes about trying to get his guns forward on roads jammed with traffic, trying to find the infantry brigade he was supposed to support, floundering about in the dark under heavy shellfire in an enormous plain of clay having the consistency of vaseline, devoid of any landmark or feature, covered in shell holes. His own artillery brigade commander had been killed before the offensive began which left him in command of all four batteries in what was virtually his first action, and a major offensive at that. Later he gives a vivd account of the German gas attack at Wulverghem on 30 April 1916, when a mixture of chlorine and phosgene was used causing 338 casualties in the division. During August and September 1916 his division took part in the bitter fighting for Delville Wood and Guillemont, and the diary entries for this period provide some of the most powerfully descriptive writing recorded in any memoirs. There are excellent maps showing battery positions. He was in action at Messines in June 1917 and a month later at Third Ypres. In August 1917 he was finally given command of a brigade, 108th Brigade RFA still in the 24th Division. When the Germans struck on 21st March 1918 Hamilton was on leave in the UK, but he quickly managed to get back to his brigade, which was in action near Rosieres, a few miles east of Amiens. On 31st March he was killed when a shell burst under his horse just as had happened in October 1914; on that occasion he got away with an injury, this time there was no reprieve. He is buried in the communal cemetery at Rouvrel about three miles west of Moreuil, the only Commonwealth war grave in that cemetery. If your battlefield tour takes you near Amiens, make a point of visiting the grave of a brave soldier; it is fifteen years since I was there. This book is a wonderful and fitting memorial to him.

[charlie962]

p280 4 May 1917, posted to 108 Bde.

p286 16 May 1917,.  .. I am posted to command A/106 Bde.

Edit:

p320 17/6/17..I must take over the brigade (106) once more....I do not know if I shall get the permanent command or not..

p320 18/6/17...I am commanding two brigades now, the 106th and the 64th...  

p324. 22/6/17... the new Colonel (for 106) has arrived...

 

Due to sickness and casualties the situation was very fluid ! 

Anyway" the Master of Belhaven" has been highly recommended many times on this forum.

Edited 24 July , 2022 by charlie962

[kildaremark]

Just to clarify - how do you know he was in 106 Brigade?

His medal roll is 106b which is a page reference number unless I've missed something here??

 

Mark

[Persimmon]

35 minutes ago, kildaremark said:

Just to clarify - how do you know he was in 106 Brigade?

His medal roll is 106b which is a page reference number unless I've missed something here??

 

Mark

Mark,

Thank you for replying. 

As I am new to this subject I assumed (clearly wrongly) that the medal card gave his Battalion.

(ie) it was the 106th.

I have looked at the medical hospital listing for him - when he had Pneumonia - and I do now see something specific re his area of responsibility.

I was more focused on the illness etc !

It is listed as Corps B5 Res Rfat.

I am not sure exactly what that means. Any help appreciated.

Would the Rfat = Royal Field Artillery  Territorial  ??

Kind Regards

Alan

Edited 25 July , 2022 by Persimmon

[RussT]

That is a rookie error. You are not the first and you will not be the last.

When I saw your opening post where you said you had done some basic research, alarm bells should have gone off in my head 

Need to go right back to the beginning. How do you know the MIC for this Martin Finn is your man? Where was he from?

Regards

Russ

[Persimmon]

25 minutes ago, RussT said:

That is a rookie error. You are not the first and you will not be the last.

When I saw your opening post where you said you had done some basic research, alarm bells should have gone off in my head 

Need to go right back to the beginning. How do you know the MIC for this Martin Finn is your man? Where was he from?

 

25 minutes ago, RussT said:

Regards

Russ

Russ, Rookie mistake indeed. 

On the back of the photograph taken in the Blumberg & Herrmann studio in Koln Germany (one presumes he wasn’t a spy and was there instead as part of the British Army of Occupation ! ) is his name and the number 645355 and 407

On the medal record card these numbers - the revised number given out in 1917 is there in addition to his old number of 407. 

So that links to the picture of him in his RFA uniform to the record cards. 

I wrongly assumed that the medal records information showing 106 b meant 106th Battalion. 

With Mark highlighting the mistake I looked again at the hospital records page and that shows him as part of - 

Corps B5 Res Rfat

So, what was Corps B5. Battalion 5  or a sector of a battalion ?

Martin’s family was from Glasgow, Scotland  

He was born in 1898 

Hopefully that clearer chaps. 

Alan

Edited 25 July , 2022 by Persimmon