3 brothers in the KOYLI question?

[andy2014]

Hello everyone!

Hope you are all well!

I was asked to look into someone`s grandfather, during the search I also discovered his two brothers, all 3 served in the KOYLI, 2 in the labour Corps and 1 who was a LCpl and died on the first day of the Somme, the family are all from Pontefract.

See Details below on each from the medal index cards and pension records.

Pte Ernest Briggs, KOYLI & Lab C, 30284 & 617220

Pte William Briggs Yorks L I & Lab Corps, 16516 & 427635 (entered into France 11.9.15)  

LCpl James Moffit Briggs, 10th Btn Yorks L I, 16212, (Theatre of war qualifying date: 11.9.15) Missing & Wounded 1.7.16

Questions:

1. Is there any way from looking at the Service numbers of knowing if they signed up together or at the same place? William & James went to France 11.9.15.

2. I guess the 2 brothers in the labour corps may have served together? is there a war diary for the Labour corps KOYLI?

3. James ended up a LCpl. Is that because he would have been very clever and well educated? Is there any way of knowing what Company he was in charge of, the 10th Btn KOYLI war diary HQ orders is very detailed as to which company possibly went into which trenches etc during the attack on the 1st July and it could be good to research trench maps into more detail when and where he was wounded and missing? that's if they got that far but at least that would have been their objective and direction if any got past the machine guns? which few if any I guess did.

4. What exactly did the labour corps do. Did they actually fight in the front line or where they mainly support. 

I haven't attached any clips as I don`t think it is allowed, MIC`s, Pension record cards etc, also not discovered any service records yet, assume all lost as burnt records.

Thanks in advance for any replies, 

Best regards Andy 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 11 July , 2022 by andy2014
Update

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, andy2014 said:

1. Is there any way from looking at the Service numbers of knowing if they signed up together or at the same place?

1. Ernest was either a Derby Scheme attestation or conscript who was mobilised on or around the 7th June 1916.  Based on surviving records with similar numbers he may have been posted to a Garrison Battalion of the East Yorkshire Regiment on account of his medical category. 

We don't know, interim units are not shown on the Medal Rolls, but we do know he was posted to the Labour Corps towards the end of August 1918.

It's a fair bet the other two brothers joined the 10th Battalion and served together as they share the same date of entry into France.  We can estimate James enlisted first in October 1914 and William appears to have enlisted at Pontefract in September, which seems a bit anomalous and would need more research but essentially they both enlisted in the 10th Battalion and more than likely at Pontefract where the Battalion was initially raised as part of K3.

1 hour ago, andy2014 said:

I guess the 2 brothers in the labour corps may have served together? is there a war diary for the Labour corps KOYLI?

2. Highly unlikely, there was no association between the infantry regiments and the Labour Corps where men were usually posted when no longer fit for active duty on the Front line. Suggest you look for the casualty records for William.

1 hour ago, andy2014 said:

James ended up a LCpl. Is that because he would have been very clever and well educated? Is there any way of knowing what Company he was in charge of, the 10th Btn KOYLI war diary HQ orders is very detailed as to which company possibly went into which trenches etc during the attack on the 1st July and it could be good to research trench maps into more detail when and where he was wounded and missing? that's if they got that far but at least that would have been their objective and direction if any got past the machine guns? which few if any I guess did.

3.Lance Corporal was an appointment, he would have been in charge of a section within a platoon.  Often men were reluctant to accept the appointment as they didn't want to be "in charge" of their mates.  Once he moved from one unit to another he was more than likely to lose his stripe.  As for the action of the 10th KOYLI you can currently download the war diary for free from TNA

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353177

you should also download the brigade war diary as that contains operation orders and more detail.

Once you have done that you can download the trench map from the National Library of Scotland where you can overlay it with modern Google maps

https://maps.nls.uk/ww1/trenches/

1 hour ago, andy2014 said:

What exactly did the labour corps do. Did they actually fight in the front line or where they mainly support. 

4. See LLT https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-labour-corps-of-1917-1918/

We don't know if they were in France or the UK but yes they were in support, the seminal study of the Labour Corps is "No Labour No Battle"

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0752449753/ref=as_sl_pc_ss_til?tag=thebritiarmyi-21&linkCode=w00&linkId=VBPGG46ZSQDDBPKS&creativeASIN=0752449753

 

[andy2014]

3 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

1. Ernest was either a Derby Scheme attestation or conscript who was mobilised on or around the 7th June 1916.  Based on surviving records with similar numbers he may have been posted to a Garrison Battalion of the East Yorkshire Regiment on account of his medical category. 

We don't know, interim units are not shown on the Medal Rolls, but we do know he was posted to the Labour Corps towards the end of August 1918.

It's a fair bet the other two brothers joined the 10th Battalion and served together as they share the same date of entry into France.  We can estimate James enlisted first in October 1914 and William appears to have enlisted at Pontefract in September, which seems a bit anomalous and would need more research but essentially they both enlisted in the 10th Battalion and more than likely at Pontefract where the Battalion was initially raised as part of K3.

2. Highly unlikely, there was no association between the infantry regiments and the Labour Corps where men were usually posted when no longer fit for active duty on the Front line. Suggest you look for the casualty records for William.

3.Lance Corporal was an appointment, he would have been in charge of a section within a platoon.  Often men were reluctant to accept the appointment as they didn't want to be "in charge" of their mates.  Once he moved from one unit to another he was more than likely to lose his stripe.  As for the action of the 10th KOYLI you can currently download the war diary for free from TNA

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353177

you should also download the brigade war diary as that contains operation orders and more detail.

Once you have done that you can download the trench map from the National Library of Scotland where you can overlay it with modern Google maps

https://maps.nls.uk/ww1/trenches/

4. See LLT https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-labour-corps-of-1917-1918/

We don't know if they were in France or the UK but yes they were in support, the seminal study of the Labour Corps is "No Labour No Battle"

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0752449753/ref=as_sl_pc_ss_til?tag=thebritiarmyi-21&linkCode=w00&linkId=VBPGG46ZSQDDBPKS&creativeASIN=0752449753

 

Thanks so much for such wonderful detailed information, very interesting! lots to digest there and new to me.

Thanks again for your time in replying! very appreciated! 

Best wishes

Andy 

[andy2014]

6 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

1. Ernest was either a Derby Scheme attestation or conscript who was mobilised on or around the 7th June 1916.  Based on surviving records with similar numbers he may have been posted to a Garrison Battalion of the East Yorkshire Regiment on account of his medical category. 

We don't know, interim units are not shown on the Medal Rolls, but we do know he was posted to the Labour Corps towards the end of August 1918.

It's a fair bet the other two brothers joined the 10th Battalion and served together as they share the same date of entry into France.  We can estimate James enlisted first in October 1914 and William appears to have enlisted at Pontefract in September, which seems a bit anomalous and would need more research but essentially they both enlisted in the 10th Battalion and more than likely at Pontefract where the Battalion was initially raised as part of K3.

2. Highly unlikely, there was no association between the infantry regiments and the Labour Corps where men were usually posted when no longer fit for active duty on the Front line. Suggest you look for the casualty records for William.

3.Lance Corporal was an appointment, he would have been in charge of a section within a platoon.  Often men were reluctant to accept the appointment as they didn't want to be "in charge" of their mates.  Once he moved from one unit to another he was more than likely to lose his stripe.  As for the action of the 10th KOYLI you can currently download the war diary for free from TNA

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353177

you should also download the brigade war diary as that contains operation orders and more detail.

Once you have done that you can download the trench map from the National Library of Scotland where you can overlay it with modern Google maps

https://maps.nls.uk/ww1/trenches/

4. See LLT https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-labour-corps-of-1917-1918/

We don't know if they were in France or the UK but yes they were in support, the seminal study of the Labour Corps is "No Labour No Battle"

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0752449753/ref=as_sl_pc_ss_til?tag=thebritiarmyi-21&linkCode=w00&linkId=VBPGG46ZSQDDBPKS&creativeASIN=0752449753

 

Can you elaborate on this for Ernest..   medical category? 

"Ernest was either a Derby Scheme attestation or conscript who was mobilised on or around the 7th June 1916.  Based on surviving records with similar numbers he may have been posted to a Garrison Battalion of the East Yorkshire Regiment on account of his medical category"

I have found his medal index card so far but no other record, just wondering what I have missed which has his medical category? 

Thanks 

[charlie962]

2 hours ago, kenf48 said:

Suggest you look for the casualty records for William.

William appears as wounded in the Daily Casualty List of 10/8/16 which suggests actual wounding probably early July 1916.

His Labour Corps number was in a block issued to ex KOYLI men in Oct 1917. Looking at Labour Corps close service numbers these KOYLI men seem to have been wounded around July 1916, repatriated to UK  then after a year compulsorily transferred to the LC. 

Charlie

[kenf48]

13 hours ago, andy2014 said:

Can you elaborate on this for Ernest..   medical category? 

"Ernest was either a Derby Scheme attestation or conscript who was mobilised on or around the 7th June 1916.  Based on surviving records with similar numbers he may have been posted to a Garrison Battalion of the East Yorkshire Regiment on account of his medical category"

I have found his medal index card so far but no other record, just wondering what I have missed which has his medical category? 

Thanks 

It is speculative but the circumstantial evidence is that he did not enlist with his brothers in either the 9th or 10th Bn. of the KOYLI when the Battalions were raised in 1914, nor did he go with them to F&F.   There may of course be any number of reasons why he chose not to enlist in what is known as 'the voluntary period', we simply don't know. (as I said previously in the next sentence).

We do know, from surviving service records with similar numbers he was mobilised to the KOYLI on or around 7th June 1916 every record I looked at from this group were in medical category B1, that doesn't mean that Ernest was on the balance of probability it seems likely which is why I qualified the statement with 'may'.  In the absence of a service record I have no definitive knowledge as to Ernest's medical category or likely postings other than his mobilisation and transfer to the Labour Corps.  My apologies for any confusion caused.

You may wish to consider the following records there is no certainty without corroboration or service record that Ernest followed the path trodden by any of them once mobilised:-

30281 Blackburn A Derby Scheme attestation 1 December 1915
Mobilised 7th June KOYLI and numbered; posted to 1st Garrison Battalion 19.6.1916

30284 Briggs ??? Mobilised 7th June 1916 KOYLI
 
The splendidly named 30285 Aquilla Holdsworth  Another Derby Attestation 10 December 1915
Mobilised 7th June 1916 posted to 3rd Bn 9th June
Posted E Yorks  2nd Garrison Battalion 26th August 1916

30291 Alcock Derby Scheme attestation 8 December 1915
Mobilised 8th June 1916
Posted 5th Battalion KOYLI
To France 28.9.1916 destined for 2nd Bn. but at Etaples was posted to the 7th Battalion (subsequently wounded and repatriated 1917).

You say you have downloaded the pension documents.  There is no objection to you posting them here to ask for help with interpretation as you are not asking others to download them for you.  They may offer more information especially any interim numbers.

10 hours ago, charlie962 said:

William appears as wounded in the Daily Casualty List of 10/8/16 which suggests actual wounding probably early July 1916.

Thank you I wonder if the two brothers are mentioned in the local newspapers.

To answer my own question this from the Yorkshire Evening Post 28 July 1916 which confirms the brothers were in the same Battalion in France and a photograph of James, who has been listed as 'died of wounds' and 'killed' as well as 'previously reported wounded now wounded and missing' in different reports. I think the most likely is that conveyed to Mrs Briggs below, i.e.'killed in action'.

 

Image from BNA on FMP

 

 

[charlie962]

2 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

confirms the brothers were in the same Battalion i

Good find.

[andy2014]

3 hours ago, kenf48 said:

It is speculative but the circumstantial evidence is that he did not enlist with his brothers in either the 9th or 10th Bn. of the KOYLI when the Battalions were raised in 1914, nor did he go with them to F&F.   There may of course be any number of reasons why he chose not to enlist in what is known as 'the voluntary period', we simply don't know. (as I said previously in the next sentence).

We do know, from surviving service records with similar numbers he was mobilised to the KOYLI on or around 7th June 1916 every record I looked at from this group were in medical category B1, that doesn't mean that Ernest was on the balance of probability it seems likely which is why I qualified the statement with 'may'.  In the absence of a service record I have no definitive knowledge as to Ernest's medical category or likely postings other than his mobilisation and transfer to the Labour Corps.  My apologies for any confusion caused.

You may wish to consider the following records there is no certainty without corroboration or service record that Ernest followed the path trodden by any of them once mobilised:-

30281 Blackburn A Derby Scheme attestation 1 December 1915
Mobilised 7th June KOYLI and numbered; posted to 1st Garrison Battalion 19.6.1916

30284 Briggs ??? Mobilised 7th June 1916 KOYLI
 
The splendidly named 30285 Aquilla Holdsworth  Another Derby Attestation 10 December 1915
Mobilised 7th June 1916 posted to 3rd Bn 9th June
Posted E Yorks  2nd Garrison Battalion 26th August 1916

30291 Alcock Derby Scheme attestation 8 December 1915
Mobilised 8th June 1916
Posted 5th Battalion KOYLI
To France 28.9.1916 destined for 2nd Bn. but at Etaples was posted to the 7th Battalion (subsequently wounded and repatriated 1917).

You say you have downloaded the pension documents.  There is no objection to you posting them here to ask for help with interpretation as you are not asking others to download them for you.  They may offer more information especially any interim numbers.

Thank you I wonder if the two brothers are mentioned in the local newspapers.

To answer my own question this from the Yorkshire Evening Post 28 July 1916 which confirms the brothers were in the same Battalion in France and a photograph of James, who has been listed as 'died of wounds' and 'killed' as well as 'previously reported wounded now wounded and missing' in different reports. I think the most likely is that conveyed to Mrs Briggs below, i.e.'killed in action'.

 

Image from BNA on FMP

 

 

That is fantastic, thanks so much! I use Ancestry on this one instead of FMP to search and built a tree, I also use BNA and looked loads for any newspaper articles.

Thats a great find. I need to look on FMP also.

Really interesting details that I will read and digest.

Thanks again so much!

Andy