Was Hermeton s/Meuse (now Hastière) a battle scene between 1914-1918?

[benjamin thyla]

Dear all, 

Short intro: Hermeton is a small community (a hamont in fact) on the Belgian-French border, at the banks of the river Meuse. It is now part of Hastière and is only a few km from Givet (FR). It had good railway connections and several stations (Hermeton - Agimont- Heer before entering Givet). 23rd August 1914 there has been a "murderous" passage by the Germans, burning down over 70 houses (there were only about 115 houses) and executing about 30 people. 5 of them got honoured with a streetname (e.g. Jules Poucet).

I am looking for a WW1 Allied cemetery that would have been here in Hermeton temporarily, but the local residents that I have spoken contradict each other and most seem to confuse with a (very) deadly conflict between Germans and Allies in WW2. 

To understand the cemetery-question, I need to explain that Hermeton had a "first" church (with the "old or Nr 1" cemetery around it) that was dismantled in 1913. So before WW1. But the cemetery remained in use. In 1909 a new church - the Saint Rémi church - was erected a few 100 m below the same street (Rue de la Libération, named so > 1945). And with the new church came a new cemetery Nr 2 (around 1950).

Now the logic would be that WW1 Allied soldiers would have been burried at or near the (small) presbytarium facing the old churchyard-cemetery, because dead soldiers are first mortally wounded or sick and hence cared for by FA, ADS, RAP staff and personnel in or near whatever intact structure having nuns or nurses. The old Hermeton cemetery is such place, the new church was the Regimental HQ of the SAI4th, ASC Div Train and SALTMB a week after the armistice. Their WDs reveal NO casualties, except CO Lt-Col MacLeod who needed transfer to the CCS because of "neuritis in right arm". 

My question (sorry for the long intro): is anyone of you aware of combat or collision between Allies and Germans, between 1914-1918, in this hamont (or region Heer, Agimont, Bac du Prince, Hastière), causing Allies to die? With the need to burry them here - at Hermeton? If so, I would be much obliged if you could give me the Div, Reg't... whatever so that I can browse the Archives.

Much obliged,

Benjamin Thyla  

  

[kenf48]

I'm not sure if this is the answer to your question, the short answer to which is 'no' I'm not aware of any British action in the region, but as your query concerns"Allies" the French and Belgians were.

To clarify there are only thirteen locations listed in the Belgian province of Namur where there are  CWGC commemorative graves.  Most burials are in single figures and most, including the most populated  Belgrade Cemetery, Namur associated with post war CCS, not 1914.

https://www.cwgc.org/visit-us/find-cemeteries-memorials/search-results/?Country=Belgium&Lat=0&Lon=0&Locality=Namur&Name=&CasualtiesRange=0&WarSelect=1

You could then search any casualties from 1914 to see if they were 'brought in' post armistice.

That said I would suggest the German advance through Belgium was paused at the Siege of Namur which I believe is to the North of the location you describe.

There are couple of maps on the Wikipedia page describing the siege and perhaps worth noting it is recorded the Germans took a number of prisoners to the south of the city as they evacuated the fort

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Namur_(1914)

It appears the French also retreated to the South and may have passed through the region you describe but I'm not up with the movement of the French Army.  

You will see from the map the BEF was to the West around Mons. (The CWGC lists 113 locations in the Province of Hainault.)

So I guess you need a French or German specialist perhaps @AOK4 can help or of course one of the Belgian members, perhaps @Marilyne?

[benjamin thyla]

Thank you very much for your answer, General. Quite educational, I will certainly follow/explore your suggestions. 

From a local resident that I interviewed a few weeks ago, living across the old cemetery, 1 WW1 French soldier is believed to have been burried at the old Hermeton s/Meuse cemetery. In the 60-70's (the aged lady does not recall it 100%), the Soldier was exhumed and transferred to??? This info is not confirmed by the Hastière patrimonial historian though, but he admits to know nothing about WW1. The lady I spoke was the daughter of the grave digger from the old cemetery, so she is convinced that it occurred, as she witnessed it. But, to her knowledge only this one French Soldier, apparently named or nicknamed "La chèvre" (the Goat) was burried here, temporarily. But is this synonym to "Allied" cemetery?? I guess not...

As said, I will now explore the suggestions, in the meanwhile, any new suggestion or intel is very welcome, as I know nothing about the advance (or retreat) of troops whatever at this location for the period before the armistice 1918. Right after 1918, there must have been over a thousand of troops here, around the church, at least 150 tents and over 300 horses, as it was a halting point for the now 66 Div SAI4th, SALMTB, Div Train and 31 Div RHA E Battery. Also other (e.g. Irish) Battalions rested here "to visit"/play football against the SAI... Apart from the WDs in the Archives, there is no information whatsoever here locally at Hastière...  

In attachment: the destroyed village of Hermeton in 1914; and the old church somewhere between 1900-1910...

Sincerely,

Benjamin Thyla

 

    

[Interested]

After the cessation of fighting many bodies were concentrated into larger cemeteries, so perhaps you could find the nearest Cemetery to the village and check to see if any bodies were moved from there?

Just a thought.

[benjamin thyla]

good evening General,

I have checked the link and the 13 Namur (area) cemeteries. Dinant and Houyet are very close to Hermeton s/Meuse.

As there are quasi no casualties dating from 1914 or even later, I have divided the parties in "before" and "after" Armistice. On a grand total of 291 burials, 4 date from 1914; 3 from 1915 and 1 from 1916. The vast majority dates (with a few exceptions from April 1918) > Armistice (Dec 1918; up to April 1919); probably these men died from multiple organ failure months after being gravely wounded... The Namur Siege reads like quite impressive (thanks for the link), but it seems that it caused quasi no KIA or mortally wounded among Germans nor Allies...

The map included in the Wikipedia link suggests though that there might have been an opportunity for enemy contact in Hermeton in August 1914 (a few mm above Givet on the map); between Joffre's 3rd Army and Von Hausen's 5th Army.

Greetings and thank you again

Benjamin Thyla 

[benjamin thyla]

To Major Old Sweats,

I have been doing that for a year or two by now. Hermeton officials (Community house Hastière) are "interested" in my findings on the SAI4th, which I have shared, but they tend to return - literally - nothing. Even not the church answers. So, basically, I wouldn't know where to (re)start by now. 

[Marilyne]

Good morning, 

Bonjour Benjamin, 

Having spent 3 years in Dinant a couple of years back - euh... nearly 2 decades back actually...  ) I visited all the WWI cemeteries in the area, and can think of none in the area of Hastières, in and around which we used to do a lot of exercices.

Sorry I can't help ... 

M.

[benjamin thyla]

Good morning General,

In fact, your answer is very helpful! I have had some more input from locals, the church factory, archives of Namur, ex-mil, GWF Jan, etc... Except from the (very) small possibility that Germans could have been interred temporarily in 15-15 and exhumed/transferred 16-17, there is zero recollection of an Allied cemetery in Hermeton (s/Meuse). But I am closing in on the target via the local church (J de la paroisserie) workers, I hope that I will get a definitive answer soon.

Cordialement

Benjamin Thyla  

[AOK4]

There were here and there French graves in communal cemeteries all over Belgium. A lot of those were concentrated to other cemeteries ca 1970 (to Chastre I believe). That is also a possibility.

Jan

[benjamin thyla]

Good morning Maj-Gen,

Coincidentally, I received an answer from a fwd'd person apparently connected to the municipal mgt of Hermeton. He explains that there was no fighting in Hermeton: the French scattered after Waulsort and Hastière confrontations, retreated as fast as possible. That way, they passed through Hermeton before the Saxons arrived (and executed 5 civilians and burned 78 houses). However, the daughter of the past gravedigger claims that in the 60s or 70s she witnessed the exhumation/transfer of 1 French soldier from the old cemetery. I will upload the exact spot "where".

So, this would match with what you answered, i.e., single or few burials were done at civilian cemeteries.

Cordialement

Benjamin Thyla

[AOK4]

There should be traces of this grave in the communal archives as military graves had to be reported every now and then. You may want to try and contact the French military graves commission. They may be able to help you as well: https://www.memoiredeshommes.sga.defense.gouv.fr/fr/article.php?larub=44&titre=sepultures-de-guerre

Jan

[benjamin thyla]

Thank you very much, will try out this lead

BT

[benjamin thyla]

Probably a very stupid question from me; but do the French and the Americans have an "Archive" system, similar to the UK Archives, and where one can consult War Diaries?

Cordialement

Benjamin Thyla

[AOK4]

https://www.memoiredeshommes.sga.defense.gouv.fr/fr/article.php?larub=3&titre=premiere-guerre-mondiale

[benjamin thyla]

Thanks a lot M-G,

I have looked and browsed into the link. The data are fine, but not "exhaustive" enough for my set up. I would really need to access - for instance - the war diaries of the 148th ri. Cfr. UK Archives. But I guess that these are perhaps not digitalized? 

Cordialement,

Benjamin Thyla

[AOK4]

They are there! Under Journaux de marche. Those are the actual regimental war diaries (digitized)...

 

[benjamin thyla]

Yes, I already imagined that my browsing technique might be rusty... Thank you very much! I will come back if I find any dead French Soldier in Hermeton.

Cordialement

BT

[benjamin thyla]

Good Morning M-G,

Found what I needed! Thanks again!

BT

[benjamin thyla]

Dear all,

I progressed somewhat, mainly by conducting search in French archives (Belgian and French JMO). To recap, I am searching the answer whether 23 August 1914, French and Saxons fought at Hermeton s/Meuse.

Now, there are the JMO's of the 148th RI (French) and a Belgian report of 1919 on the Invasion of Namur by the Germans. The last one is very interesting as p.65-68 is specifically about the situation at Hermeton 23-25 August. The data between this witness report (gathered from the local priest curé Clobert in 1915) are conflicting with the JMO's of that same date. The French fighting in retreat, had KiA at Hastière and Hastière-Par-Delà 23 August, but Hermeton is not mentioned in their JMO. 25th August they again collided with Saxons (probably of the 106th IR, possibly 104th too) at Agimont: 8 Saxons were KiA, only two French wounded. 

Father Clobert tells it differently. 23th August 8.00am 50 exhausted foot soldiers of the 148th enter Hermeton. Quite immediately they left, leaving a few sentries behind. During the great mass (usually 9.00am during summertime) the priest and the people in the church heard shooting from without: the sentries and Saxons were aiming at each other from the opposing river banks of the Meuse. Father Clobert attested that "on either side" some were KiA and wounded. In the afternoon French artillerists return from neighboring Agimont with a cannon and they started shelling the sluice 2-300m northward (direction of Hastière). 24th in the morning more than 1.000 refugees from the surrounding villages are fleeing in the forested hills along the Hermeton river, most of the 375 inhabitants of Hermeton and Father Clobert follow their example. Not a moment too soon, because 2.30pm the Saxons engulf Hermeton, killing the few civilians left (among them Father Shlögel and Prof Ponthière). What is puzzling is that Father Clobert's testimonial appears to be 100% trustworthy. Because he and Abbé Schlögel had a discussion that morning of 24th, namely that the villagers persuaded Clobert to leave with them into the forest, while Schlögel reacted with "Should I stay, or should I run away like you?" Schlögel was executed that day, and 26th Clobert returned for a brief moment to Hermeton, while the bodies of Schlögel and his brother-in-law Prof Ponthière were still laying on the roadside. So there is almost no possibility that Clobert was mistaken regarding the dates in August 1914.

Now, I told you that the lady living in the Rue de la Libération witnessed the exhumation of a French WW1 soldier in the sixties or seventies. Uncommonly late, but it is possible. Inhumation/exhumation paperwork could have been "simple", if it were not that "much" of the archives has been lost during the flooding of Hastière in 1993. An event causing the King to leave his big house to have a quick peek over here. To make it even worse, "most" of the archives were lost in the flooding of 1995, again causing the King to descend from his palace in Brussels... We checked with patrimonial societies (Agimont and Hastière, asbl's) and indeed, they confirm, most of this kind of "old" archives was destroyed by the Meuse. 

Leaving us with one (1) witness report that a French soldier was exhumed from the old churchyard, and with one (conflicting) report of the curé back those days claiming that a "few" Saxons and French were killed 23 August...

Besides this narrative, is there anyone among you having an idea whether Saxons would have dug trenches here? In other words, would Germans have dug trenches in Hermeton which they occupied for 4 years, without any conflict? The railways 154 and 156 passing through Hermeton were used for warfare transport to Verdun. 

Cordialement

Benjamin

 

      

[thierry]

Hi

They primarily engaged in battles at Hastière-par-delà and Waulsort. They were coming from Mesnil-Saint--Blaise/Blaimont and from Falmignoul. After the combats in Hastière, they advanced towards Hermeton, while after the skirmish in Waulsort ( Cascatelles and Colebi) , they proceeded in the direction of Onhaye. I'm not certain about the presence of a cemetery in Hermeton, but what I can tell you is that there are three military cemeteries in the vicinity: one in Hastière-par-delà (decommissioned but still visible), one in Waulsort (decommissioned but still visible), and another in Onhaye (decommissioned and I'm not sure)." These three cemeteries are not at the place of the official cemeteries. Hope it helps. Thierry

 

[benjamin thyla]

Good evening Thierry, thanks for your reaction, much appreciated!

As you will have noticed, my last post regarding this topic dates from more than a year ago.

In the meantime I gathered some crucual new information. The Officer (Hastière) responsable for the cemeteries' management returned from a long sick leave, but she confirmed (or stated) that no soldiers were interred or exhumed at/from the (old, next to the church) Hermeton s/Meuse churchyard. Yes, I know about the other cemeteries: it was "custom" during wartime that soldiers were interred locally (i.e., where they fell). After the war many of these graves (among those you mention) were reallocated at the ww1 military cemetery of Marchovelette (https://www.namurtourisme.be/en/musees-culture-patrimoine/patrimoine/patrimoine-militaire-cimetiere-de-marchovelette/).

Bottomline remains that F l'E (daughter of the gravedigger of the 1960s-70s) was convinced that a French Soldier was exhumed from the old churchyard. This would coincide with Father Clobert's testimonial before Court. However, the Administrative Services of Hastière deny that any such "event" occurred. Which on its turn would coincide with the JMO of the 148 FRI that does not mention any event of this kind. But it remains a mystery why Father Clobert's testimonial (which must have been forged in his brain because nothing was to be compared with what happened 24-25 August 1914, while bullets riddled the St Rémi church walls during the great mass and French returned from Agimont to fire at the sluice...) is in black/white conflict with all the rest... 

My roots from maternal side are Morialmé (now Florennes), you will surely know the place. Via the Hermeton valley (vector the South African Scottish - and my main interest - chose in November 1918); it is a mere 20km off. The only wish I have is to erect a statue of Nancy the Springbok at the place where she has been buried - alas Mr le Bourgemestre et le Conseil Communal prefer to play the three monkeys...    

Sincerely,

Benjamin Thyla

[thierry]

Yes i Known it is an old message.  But what is old...?  Is was doing some research regarding the battle in Hastière par delà and I saw your post.  I'm sending you a map of the "battle". The temporary cemetery is at the border between the forest and the fields above the river 

There is a guy, Bernard, in Hastière who knows a lot about Nancy. I'll ask him and ask about the French soldier too.- never heard about it. For me there was no real fightings in Hermeton in 1914, french soldiers escaped direction Givet.

Have you been in the Hermeton valley ? It is the wildest valley in Belgium. It is a very unique place.  

Picture from my garden - french buttons of 1914 between apple trees. 

 

[benjamin thyla]

Good evening Thierry,

I have a camper, so indeed, my wife, the dogs, the bike... we then camp at the camping Castel Mosan (it is a W Flanders guy who runs it). The camping is a perfect, central spot to "radiate" from, in all directions (Ecole J Poucet, the execution site along the Meuse, Givet following the ancient railtracks, Agimont, Heer...) I am a runner too, that helps in losing direction 200% and then ask the locals where one is  

To be honest, the valley itself all the way up to Rosée, along the Martia mill is still on my bucket list. The parts I started with are indeed rough, but where we live today the nearby forest is quite the jungle too (especially now, it is the rain forest).

I would be delighted to contact Bernard. I like to think that my research about Nancy is 90-95% "done" (two publications), but it is always intriguing if some additional information could be obtained. If he is a Nancy-fan like I am, then we surely will have things to talk about. You may tell him that my co-author is the grandson of the McLaren-Kennedy's, Nancy's owners.

I didn't dive into the French fatigues yet, there has not been a French animal yet that I have selected to research. That is to say, I am really intrigued by the story of Satan of Verdun, but it might be an embellished or confabulated story. However, I was at the Asnières Pet Cemetery to visit Rin Tin Tin's grave, and there were two graves of WW1 mascots of the Poilus: Dick and Memère. Apparently, these dogs had shown extreme gallantry during WW1, but their stories evaporated by the mist of times. What I meant by this "intro": I don't know what the buttons with the flaming "bomb" mean in casu for French soldiers: grenadiers? RE? Artillery?

Very interesting talking to you! Quite a garden you have... Thanks for the map!

Benjamin Thyla